Wonderful explanation Sim, it shows that you are the model sample of Penangite : )
I know "one two som" is another common name for the game "som tri". But it seems to me like "one two som" is more used by the English educated children/people. Maybe this is just the stereotype image i got from my limited english educated friends. I always used "som tri".
I wonder if there is any meaning for "som" or "tri" !?
I don't know the term "a ci lot" or "a ci lut". But you remind me about another game I would like to know the proper pronounciation and meaning of it.
"zhui1 lou4 zhui1 peng3 peng1
zhui3 zhui3 chiak3 pa4 cou1 lang3 peng1"
This game is played extensively to divide a bunch of people into groups. For instance, if 10 children are to play football or chase,2 groups of 5 people can be decided with this game eventually: Each word in the chant is pointed to each person, so if the first zhui1 is for the first person, cou1 (the tenth word) for the tenth, lang3 again for the first person, thus peng1 for the second person. This 2nd person will be singled out. The chant is repeated without this person and everytime the singled out person is allocated alternatively to 2 different groups (or any other depending on the situation).
What is the meaning of the chant?
I think peng3 peng1 is "soldier soldier" (bing1 bing1 in mandarin), zhui3 zhui3 is "who who" (shui2 shui2 in mandarin), chiak3 pa4 is "eat full" (chi1 bao3 in mandarin), cou1 lang3 peng1 is "become human soldier" (zuo4 ren2 bing1 in Mandarin). Pardon me again for my own version of romanisation. All the tones indicated are Mandarin tones.
But what is the proper words and pronounciation for the whole chant? I couldn't speak Hokkien when I was small, so I memorise the pronounciation of them without understanding it.
Eng Wai
La la li la tam pong
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Sim
Re: La la li la tam pong
Hi Eng Wai,
I'm sorry, I don't know this game, nor the chant. The translation you've given for the second line makes a lot of sense though. My Hokkien is not good enough to work out what the first line might mean - hopefully other readers of the forum will be able to.
What is your background? Did you grow up in Penang? How come you know some Hokkien but don't speak it?
Sim.
I'm sorry, I don't know this game, nor the chant. The translation you've given for the second line makes a lot of sense though. My Hokkien is not good enough to work out what the first line might mean - hopefully other readers of the forum will be able to.
What is your background? Did you grow up in Penang? How come you know some Hokkien but don't speak it?
Sim.
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hong
Re: La la li la tam pong
Sim,
He is henghua(Putian or xianyou?two different in pitch)and his mother is hakka,so it is fair for his family to use mandarin.He knows minnan because he is from Penang.
He is henghua(Putian or xianyou?two different in pitch)and his mother is hakka,so it is fair for his family to use mandarin.He knows minnan because he is from Penang.
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Eng Wai
Re: La la li la tam pong
Sim
I was born in Penang and grew up in Penang. My dad is a Heng Hua from Penang Road, Penang. My mum is a Hakka from Kulim, Kedah. Since I was born my parents communicate with me in Mandarin but my parents converse in Penang Hokkien, not Heng Hua / Hakka as Kedah people know Hokkien like Penang people. The reason my parents speak Mandarin, I guess, most probably right, is that Mandarin is the official/educational Chinese language, and there is a written language for Mandarin.
I went to Chinese primary school and Chung Ling High School. In primary school, my peers were all speaking Hokkien though they can understand limited Mandarin, through education. It was quite irritating at times because I can't communicate freely with them. When I was in secondary school, more and more people (especially those good boy type) are speaking Mandarin, thus the communication restraint less and less pronounced. My understanding of Hokkien grows when I become older and older. I went to college after secondary school. There I spoke Hokkien to my friends (English educated people and those Hokkien speaking people who are not forced to speak Mandarin anymore). At that time I have accumulated enough Hokkien language knowledge to speak Penang HOkkien freely though I never really spoke it before.
Hope this background information helps. : )
Eng Wai
[%sig%]
I was born in Penang and grew up in Penang. My dad is a Heng Hua from Penang Road, Penang. My mum is a Hakka from Kulim, Kedah. Since I was born my parents communicate with me in Mandarin but my parents converse in Penang Hokkien, not Heng Hua / Hakka as Kedah people know Hokkien like Penang people. The reason my parents speak Mandarin, I guess, most probably right, is that Mandarin is the official/educational Chinese language, and there is a written language for Mandarin.
I went to Chinese primary school and Chung Ling High School. In primary school, my peers were all speaking Hokkien though they can understand limited Mandarin, through education. It was quite irritating at times because I can't communicate freely with them. When I was in secondary school, more and more people (especially those good boy type) are speaking Mandarin, thus the communication restraint less and less pronounced. My understanding of Hokkien grows when I become older and older. I went to college after secondary school. There I spoke Hokkien to my friends (English educated people and those Hokkien speaking people who are not forced to speak Mandarin anymore). At that time I have accumulated enough Hokkien language knowledge to speak Penang HOkkien freely though I never really spoke it before.
Hope this background information helps. : )
Eng Wai
[%sig%]
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Sim
Re: La la li la tam pong
Hi Eng Wai,
Thanks for the background information. I was curious because in my generation (I was born in the 50's), I didn't know any Penang Chinese who didn't speak Penang Hokkien (even if they were Cantonese etc).
I guess Mandarin education progressed even more lately, so that there are Penang families who only speak Mandarin at home.
On the other hand, I only went to English school, so perhaps all my Chinese friends were naturally not Mandarin speaking, and so, if they spoke any Chinese at all, they would speak Penang Hokkien.
Great to see that you are so interested in Hokkien. Keep writing on the Forum!
Sim.
[%sig%]
Thanks for the background information. I was curious because in my generation (I was born in the 50's), I didn't know any Penang Chinese who didn't speak Penang Hokkien (even if they were Cantonese etc).
I guess Mandarin education progressed even more lately, so that there are Penang families who only speak Mandarin at home.
On the other hand, I only went to English school, so perhaps all my Chinese friends were naturally not Mandarin speaking, and so, if they spoke any Chinese at all, they would speak Penang Hokkien.
Great to see that you are so interested in Hokkien. Keep writing on the Forum!
Sim.
[%sig%]
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Eng Wai
Re: La la li la tam pong
To dissapoint you, I am not particularly interested in Hokkien. Well I do have special feeling towards Penang Hokkien due to my background obviously.
I will still ask in the forum about anything I want to know, and of course ready to debate with anyone who discriminates Hokkien, Penang Hokkien and MALAYSIAN CHINESE. Ha ha ha.
In near future I plan to learn the proper way to romanise HOkkien (Church Romanisation) and to indicate the tones. Then you will know my exxact pronounciation of Hokkien. Could you recommend any good and simple website to learn these? (Hong, stop giving endless websites url on every tread!)
My friend told me that I have an accent when speaking Hokkien. I think it is not an accent problem, but fluency problem. When I first started speaking Hokkien, obviously I was not used to it. I have an interesting, and perhaps a bit biased observation on people speaking Penang Hokkien. When lack of Hokkien vocabulary, English speakers will borrow English words, Mandarin speakers (me) will borrow Mandarin words, and those who are less fluent in both English and Mandarin will borrow Malay words.
Hope everybody is writing more.
Eng Wai
I will still ask in the forum about anything I want to know, and of course ready to debate with anyone who discriminates Hokkien, Penang Hokkien and MALAYSIAN CHINESE. Ha ha ha.
In near future I plan to learn the proper way to romanise HOkkien (Church Romanisation) and to indicate the tones. Then you will know my exxact pronounciation of Hokkien. Could you recommend any good and simple website to learn these? (Hong, stop giving endless websites url on every tread!)
My friend told me that I have an accent when speaking Hokkien. I think it is not an accent problem, but fluency problem. When I first started speaking Hokkien, obviously I was not used to it. I have an interesting, and perhaps a bit biased observation on people speaking Penang Hokkien. When lack of Hokkien vocabulary, English speakers will borrow English words, Mandarin speakers (me) will borrow Mandarin words, and those who are less fluent in both English and Mandarin will borrow Malay words.
Hope everybody is writing more.
Eng Wai
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hong
Re: La la li la tam pong
Is is fair for family to use mandarin if they are not same origin or maybe another dialect which is not the mother language for both husband and wife.
Engwai,
There is no one web site for you to learn all about minnan pinyin.There are so many hanzi for one word .
This the web site which listed all pinyin in minnan but without sound recording we can't be sure which sound it is .In chuanchiu we have different pitch for each sect.Nan an is not the same with jinjiang.
http://iug.csie.dahan.edu.tw/iug/Ungian ... huho-0.htm click no.3 for pinyin been used so far
Even we don't want to be an expert with Phd in min language,there are still so many things we have to study.There is no shortcut.I won't be sending any links because it is a total waste of time for me.
Engwai,
There is no one web site for you to learn all about minnan pinyin.There are so many hanzi for one word .
This the web site which listed all pinyin in minnan but without sound recording we can't be sure which sound it is .In chuanchiu we have different pitch for each sect.Nan an is not the same with jinjiang.
http://iug.csie.dahan.edu.tw/iug/Ungian ... huho-0.htm click no.3 for pinyin been used so far
Even we don't want to be an expert with Phd in min language,there are still so many things we have to study.There is no shortcut.I won't be sending any links because it is a total waste of time for me.
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Eng Wai
Re: La la li la tam pong
It is not about the question of fairness. My mum is a Hakka, my dad is a Heng Hua. Both can speak Penang Hokkien and both converse in Penang Hokkien. The fact that they speak to me in Mandarin is not because Mandarin is neutral to them, but rather Mandarin is more useful for me. Arguebly this is true. All the Chinese books are written in Mandarin.
If my mother tongue was to be Hokkien, I will find reading Mandarin books a hard task. Just like how I find reading English book troublesome and irritating. Of course everyone can always achieve a level of language mastering through self determination and self studying. However, if you were familiar with a useful language since small, you can really save lots of energy.
Moreover, Hokkien, or Penang Hokkien is quite limited at times. Even a person who is proficient in Hokkien will find it hard to express precise and complicated ideas. Mandarin having been used as the lingua franca among the Chinese, honoured as language of government, and employed as language of modern writing simply reinforces its superior status among the Chinese languages.
Furthermore, like a lot of people, mistakenly or unconciously regional languages (fang1 yan2) are treated as dialects, not languages. Mandarin is treated as a standard pronounciation of Chinese. So it is not hard for anyone to adopt this so-called standard Chinese. If they were to realise Hokkien as a seperate language different from Mandarin in pronounciation, grammar and vocabulary, then the issue of language sovereignity and sensitivity might be emphasised and utilised as a political tool, as we can see in Taiwan. Then probably Hokkien speakers will stop speaking Mandarin to their children.
I don't mean to demean or demote other dialect. I personally think that Hokkien and other dialects can be easily preserved in China but not in oversea Chinese communities. Many people are already struggling to learn proper Mandarin, proper Malay (in case of Malaysia) and proper English simultaneously. For example in Malaysia, there are few different chinese dialect speaking communities, cantonese, minnanese, minbeinese, hakkan. Are they to learn respective languages and ignore Mandarin? So a cantonese has to talk to me in English? I don't like this situation.
In China mainlang or Taiwan or Hong Kong Macau, they only need to learn 2/3 languages including their mother dialect. There are rooms for it. Iguess the case is different in other foreign countries.
Eng Wai
[%sig%]
If my mother tongue was to be Hokkien, I will find reading Mandarin books a hard task. Just like how I find reading English book troublesome and irritating. Of course everyone can always achieve a level of language mastering through self determination and self studying. However, if you were familiar with a useful language since small, you can really save lots of energy.
Moreover, Hokkien, or Penang Hokkien is quite limited at times. Even a person who is proficient in Hokkien will find it hard to express precise and complicated ideas. Mandarin having been used as the lingua franca among the Chinese, honoured as language of government, and employed as language of modern writing simply reinforces its superior status among the Chinese languages.
Furthermore, like a lot of people, mistakenly or unconciously regional languages (fang1 yan2) are treated as dialects, not languages. Mandarin is treated as a standard pronounciation of Chinese. So it is not hard for anyone to adopt this so-called standard Chinese. If they were to realise Hokkien as a seperate language different from Mandarin in pronounciation, grammar and vocabulary, then the issue of language sovereignity and sensitivity might be emphasised and utilised as a political tool, as we can see in Taiwan. Then probably Hokkien speakers will stop speaking Mandarin to their children.
I don't mean to demean or demote other dialect. I personally think that Hokkien and other dialects can be easily preserved in China but not in oversea Chinese communities. Many people are already struggling to learn proper Mandarin, proper Malay (in case of Malaysia) and proper English simultaneously. For example in Malaysia, there are few different chinese dialect speaking communities, cantonese, minnanese, minbeinese, hakkan. Are they to learn respective languages and ignore Mandarin? So a cantonese has to talk to me in English? I don't like this situation.
In China mainlang or Taiwan or Hong Kong Macau, they only need to learn 2/3 languages including their mother dialect. There are rooms for it. Iguess the case is different in other foreign countries.
Eng Wai
[%sig%]
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adrix
Re: La la li la tam pong
Yup! The above is a very typical way of non-Hokkien Penangite picking up Hokkien.Sim wrote:Hi Eng Wai,
Thanks for the background information. I was curious because in my generation (I was born in the 50's), I didn't know any Penang Chinese who didn't speak Penang Hokkien (even if they were Cantonese etc).
I guess Mandarin education progressed even more lately, so that there are Penang families who only speak Mandarin at home.
On the other hand, I only went to English school, so perhaps all my Chinese friends were naturally not Mandarin speaking, and so, if they spoke any Chinese at all, they would speak Penang Hokkien.
Great to see that you are so interested in Hokkien. Keep writing on the Forum!
Sim.
[%sig%]
I am, too, a non-Hokkien. I am a Teochew who only knows Teochew and Mandarin since i was small.
I went to a Mandarin school (I would called it as 'Mandarin' school cuz it just teaches Mandarin), and later to Chung Ling High School as well. I used to know little Hokkien enuf for me to buy food outside. I never really talked in Hokkien to anyone for a long conversation bcuz i didn't really mix with many ppl outside.
Most high school in northern region is very conducive in learning Hokkien, where most students are tend to communicate in Hokkien. Many of my non-Hokkien friends (those Teochew and Cantonese, 2nd and 3rd largest dialect group in Penang) start to learn Hokkien in Chung Ling.
I was a class monitor which we are forced to be the 'speak mandarin campaign' enforcer. Hence, I have totally no chance to speak Hokkien even in my high school. I start to brush up my Hokkien right after my graduation in order to get myself fit in the community (I am a bit lag compare to others). I will try to speak Hokkien to anyone when i just know him/her. Now, I am even finding friends from northern in my university, situated in Selangor, to practice it. After 4 years of practice, I am now a fluent speaker. I am now on my way to learn more genuine words (those words usually not used by youngsters) from the elderly.
Hokkien has become an identity of northern ppl, especially youngsters love to use Hokkien to show their identity as a Penangite. Cuz, you know, Penang is a pride for Penangite.
So, you may find that Hokkien just comprises half of total Chinese population in Penang. But, u can hardly find someone who dunno this language in the northern. No matter who u are, Teochew/Hakka/Hailam, we just speak Hokkien.
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Guest
Re: La la li la tam pong
[quote="Sim"]Moreover, Hokkien, or Penang Hokkien is quite limited at times. Even a person who is proficient in Hokkien will find it hard to express precise and complicated ideas. Mandarin having been used as the lingua franca among the Chinese, honoured as language of government, and employed as language of modern writing simply reinforces its superior status among the Chinese languages.
quote]
I doubt this statement. This is the matter of habit. There is no problem to express precise and complicated ideas in Hokkien. Just that many ppl like to say it in Mandarin/English when encountering these words. Indeed, i am be able to read Chinese characters in Penang Hokkien (either use Quanzhou or Zhangzhou accent for uncommon words) now. But, just that ppl will think that i try to be 'outstanding' or 'arrogant' when i use some terms that most ppl will probably express them in English.
quote]
I doubt this statement. This is the matter of habit. There is no problem to express precise and complicated ideas in Hokkien. Just that many ppl like to say it in Mandarin/English when encountering these words. Indeed, i am be able to read Chinese characters in Penang Hokkien (either use Quanzhou or Zhangzhou accent for uncommon words) now. But, just that ppl will think that i try to be 'outstanding' or 'arrogant' when i use some terms that most ppl will probably express them in English.