Penang Hokkien : 2

[Eng Wai]

Hong made a good point about the loading of webpage. And to scroll down all the way from post 1 to post 100 is troublesome as well.

I volunteer to start a new tread about Penang Hokkien. The content shoud be same as the old Penang Hokkien tread, just that this tread is new, for everyone'c convenience, inclusing me.

I was asking about the immigration history of Penang, Sim was asking about his ancestal town, Hong n Andrew were talking about tones in Xia Men dialect.

viewtopic.php?p=10743#10743
This is the old Penang Hokkien tread address.

Hong you said that Chiang Chiu people moved to Kelantan n Phillipine about 400 years before. Do you mean that Kelantan Hokkien n Phillipine Hokkien should be similar to Penang HOkkien (Chiang Chiu accent dominates). BUt I ahve few friends from kelantan and they speak different accent of Hokkien. I used to "laugh" at them. When did the surname Kong Xi people moved to Penang?

I read somewhere saying now only 20% of American can trace their ancestry to England, there are more German descendat in America. But now everyone is still speaking English. Bei Jing accent mandarin originates from Manchurian accent Mandarin. But everybody in Bei Jing is speaking bei jing accent Mandarin. Who control the economy n politics who determine the language. So I think it is very reasonable that thought Chiang Chiu are few in Penang, they still become the backbone of Penang HOkkien because they controlled the economy in the early stage.

It would be interesting to investigate the influence of Xiamen Hokkien in Penang Hokkien.

Eng Wai

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[hong]

Beijinghua is not the same as guanhua.In the earlier stage manchurian guanhua is by using nanjing wu language sound started in min dynasty.Only until 乾隆 qianlong period everyone started to used beijing sound but not Wu language from nanjing anymore.Remember guanhua is not the same in each dynasty.
Filipino minnan speak xiamen minnan as I have given the web page by Prof .Chiu.They are mostly from jinjiang .They mixed with Xiamen perhaps by watching amoy movie too much 50 years ago
Just like those quanzhou people in Taiwan.chuanchiu are harder for that two vowels which has to half raised our tongue 半翘舌音 which is dying out even in taiwan.This is why penang chuanchiu changed to simple xiamen/chaingchiu minnan sound like In 在=ti is earsier than ty ,去 khi for go is earsier than khy.But some of the sound are from xiamen like the word high is kuan which is the same in chiangchiu and amoy.
I think malaysian minnan learn xiamen by watching movie from shaw brothers company in 1950s.Even cantonese liked that.

[hong]

I should add that beijing fangyan is not the same with guanhua.And certainly not the same with putonghua.In new putonghua dict some guanhua and beijinghua are accepted as putonghua.

[Eng Wai]

Who are the shaw brothers? I haven't heard of them before!? Were they really famous?

You said in Penang, 在=ti . But I have always pronounced tua, instead of ti. I hear ti sometimes, but I think tua and ti are interchangeble. Do you know Where is the origin of tua? Quan Zhou?

From where you learned that guan hua in Ming dynasty is wu language spoken in Nan Jing? Though the earlier stage of Ming has capital lacoated at Nan Jing, I think after the 3rd king (not sure) capital has been moved to Bei Jing and it is there where gu4 gong1 was built. Did you mean they continue to speak wu in Bei Jing? When I say Bei Jing Hua, I don't mean pu tong hua (common language) or mandarin in general.

Eng Wai

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[hong]

Eng wai ,you have to buy books like mingqing guanhua yinxi by xmupress and many,many more articles on this..I read that they speak wu sound with beijing nouns,etc.
Buy dict with at least 3000 words of quanzhou,zhang,xia wenbai du sound.I cannot help with this but the link I gave in this web site are a great help if you do care to read.Without spending any monet,I can't see anyone will improve unless he stay near a good library.
Shaw brother is shao 邵 兄弟 from hongkong

[Eng Wai]

Hong, you have given too many links, I am grateful to that but I can't click every link one by one to find what I need. Maybe you could do everybody in this MinNan forum a big favour by starting your own tread and put all the links in there with brief description about each site, eg your perception on their accuracy of information, Hokkien history etc.

I see who are Shaw borthers. But did they produce Hokkien movies or dramas?

And about the tua and ti. This is my mistake, tua is zhu4 (staying) in Mandarin, ti is zai4 (at) in mandarin. 2 are not interchangeble.

Eng Wai

[hong]

they did anything just to earn money.any kind of movie will do by them.to learn about minnan or any kind of chinese languages has no short cut.you have to spend a lot of time and spend time in library if no money is available.to earn a phd degree in minnan takes 3 years.
to get through briefly the links i gave here will take only 2 hours because some are just bookshop catalog.
THERE IS NO SHORTCUt

[Andrew Yong]

Another technical-related issue: I have trouble reading some threads because I keep having to change between different Chinese encodings on explorer to read the hanzi people are writing, and I have to guess what encoding to use for different people. Is there a simpler way of doing this? Perhaps we should agree to use one encoding on this board.

[hong]

http://www.chinataiwan.org/web/webporta ... 33859.html
I don't know who is the publisher

[Niuc]

[the response below is also for Penang Hokkien thread, posted here because that thread is already too long]

Hope that all friends here are ok. Penang is one of the places hit by tsunamis. The disaster is really terrible, tens of thousands of victims in many countries, especially in Aceh - Indonesia. Hope that international aids can help lessen their sufferings.

Loon Kong, glad to know that your paternal grandfather was from 金門 Kim1-mng5. My paternal grandparents were also from Kim-mng and there are quite a lot of Kim-mng people in Indonesia & Singapore. From what I know, all Kim-mng people say mng5 for door, not mui5 - which is Ciangciu accent. None of them call Kim-mng as Kim-mui. You is ly2 in Kim-mng dialect, which is grouped into Cuanciu type.

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