to Mr Dylan:
i think the word for river is 'song' in vietnamese;
as in 'Song Hong' = the Red River
nevertheless the word s related to the Chinese '江‘ no doubt
nice to have heard your views
About Sino-Tibetan languages
-
Dylan Sung
Re: About Sino-Tibetan languages
Hung Dao Dai Vuong,
> For instance, linguists say that 60 to 70 % of vietnamese vocabs
> are loaned from the chinese language. I think this is such an
> offensive statement to the vietnamese people. If there is some
> similarities between a chinese and vietnamese vocab, at the end
> of the day linguists will conclude that we vietnamese borrowed
> it from china; what kind of logic is that?
I don't know what the percentages are. The logic derives from the fact that you have several words which refer to the same objects, but are different in pronunciation. Had the words come from one source, then you'd expect them to be similar. However, because they differ, there must be other factors which influenced the Vietnamese language.
> For instance, "sino-vietnamese" is considered as vocabs that
> were derived from chinese language; i mean do people have ever
> heard of the word "synonyms" before? Basically everyone is
> assuming that we vietnamese can't find words to describe many
> of those abstract adjectives, abstract nouns, abstract verbs
> that we have to borrow 90% of those vocabs from china.
Sino-Vietnamese is a element of Vietnamese language, and no one can take that away from you. It does imply that you cannot create your own vocabulary. Any language which is in free contact with other languages will have some form of interaction. I do not expect that Vietnamese evolved in isolation. Take English for example. Old English is basically Anglo-Saxon, dating from before the Norman Conquest of 1066 AD. No one in England can read Anglo-Saxon today without learning it, but by the time of Chaucer, two or three hundred years later, we find we can just about make out what he is talking about. This is because the Normans who were French introduced a lot of vocabulary into English, changing the very nature of English. It is why you can find many things relating to items which have a close lexical meaning, but all spelt differently. Hen, chicken, avian; bull, cow, beef; sheep, lamb, mutton; dog, hound etc.. I would expect such differences in pronunciation to be the result of linguistic absorption. This is the case in Vietnamese. You have a set of purely Vietnamese numerals do you not? Why was there a need to have another set of numbers which is related to Chinese? There must have been some linguistic absorption, and history shows this due to Chinese occupation of northern Vietnam between the first century BC and the tenth century.
> What do you think if i say that 60 to 70% of chinese vocabs
> was derived from the vietnamese language? Do you believe
> that is true?
To analyse the statement, you would have to ask, in what position would have the Vietnamese people had on the Chinese to have influence everyday speech? Where is the literature which influenced China from Vietnam? It is known that Vietnamese were probably once resident in southern China before they moved into what is modern northern Vietnam. It is possible that they may have influenced some items of speech such as 'river' mentioned earlier, but there was already a rich Chinese vocabulary by the time of austronesian influences when Zhou territory began to extend southwards. I do not think that 60 to 70% is a realistic figure. I think it would be the odd item here or there only.
Classical Chinese which was used for administration of before Vietnamese overthrew sino-colonialism for around a thousand years, and it continued to be used afterwards.
> If you say that in the beginning the vietnamese and chinese
> languages were from the same language group and that's the
> reason why these two languages have many vocabs that are
> similiar with each other then i will accept that but if you
> say that 60 to 70% of vietnamese vocabs was derived from
> chinese vocabs then i won't accept those kind of logic.
As pointed out earlier, Vietnamese is found to have much closer kin with Mon-Khmer langauges. The Sino-Vietnamese element of the Vietnamese language is just vocabulary. To make the linguistic-genetic relationship you have to look at grammar and syntax, and linguists have found that the grammar and syntax is so different from Chinese, that they could not have had a common linguistic ancestor. That is, Chinese belongs to the Sino-Tibetan group of languages whilst Vietnamese belongs to the Mon-Khmer group of languages.
Taking the example of English again, even though a lot of french vocabulary has came into English, English is still categorised as a Germanic language (German, Norwegian, Danish, Swedish, Icelandic, Faroese, Dutch etc), but French is descended from Latin -a Romance language (others include Spanish, Italian and Romanian)
When you turn the issue to a political one, I can only present one way of looking at how things came about, since we, you and I, are the products of history, and not those who made the past what it was.
Dyl.
> For instance, linguists say that 60 to 70 % of vietnamese vocabs
> are loaned from the chinese language. I think this is such an
> offensive statement to the vietnamese people. If there is some
> similarities between a chinese and vietnamese vocab, at the end
> of the day linguists will conclude that we vietnamese borrowed
> it from china; what kind of logic is that?
I don't know what the percentages are. The logic derives from the fact that you have several words which refer to the same objects, but are different in pronunciation. Had the words come from one source, then you'd expect them to be similar. However, because they differ, there must be other factors which influenced the Vietnamese language.
> For instance, "sino-vietnamese" is considered as vocabs that
> were derived from chinese language; i mean do people have ever
> heard of the word "synonyms" before? Basically everyone is
> assuming that we vietnamese can't find words to describe many
> of those abstract adjectives, abstract nouns, abstract verbs
> that we have to borrow 90% of those vocabs from china.
Sino-Vietnamese is a element of Vietnamese language, and no one can take that away from you. It does imply that you cannot create your own vocabulary. Any language which is in free contact with other languages will have some form of interaction. I do not expect that Vietnamese evolved in isolation. Take English for example. Old English is basically Anglo-Saxon, dating from before the Norman Conquest of 1066 AD. No one in England can read Anglo-Saxon today without learning it, but by the time of Chaucer, two or three hundred years later, we find we can just about make out what he is talking about. This is because the Normans who were French introduced a lot of vocabulary into English, changing the very nature of English. It is why you can find many things relating to items which have a close lexical meaning, but all spelt differently. Hen, chicken, avian; bull, cow, beef; sheep, lamb, mutton; dog, hound etc.. I would expect such differences in pronunciation to be the result of linguistic absorption. This is the case in Vietnamese. You have a set of purely Vietnamese numerals do you not? Why was there a need to have another set of numbers which is related to Chinese? There must have been some linguistic absorption, and history shows this due to Chinese occupation of northern Vietnam between the first century BC and the tenth century.
> What do you think if i say that 60 to 70% of chinese vocabs
> was derived from the vietnamese language? Do you believe
> that is true?
To analyse the statement, you would have to ask, in what position would have the Vietnamese people had on the Chinese to have influence everyday speech? Where is the literature which influenced China from Vietnam? It is known that Vietnamese were probably once resident in southern China before they moved into what is modern northern Vietnam. It is possible that they may have influenced some items of speech such as 'river' mentioned earlier, but there was already a rich Chinese vocabulary by the time of austronesian influences when Zhou territory began to extend southwards. I do not think that 60 to 70% is a realistic figure. I think it would be the odd item here or there only.
Classical Chinese which was used for administration of before Vietnamese overthrew sino-colonialism for around a thousand years, and it continued to be used afterwards.
> If you say that in the beginning the vietnamese and chinese
> languages were from the same language group and that's the
> reason why these two languages have many vocabs that are
> similiar with each other then i will accept that but if you
> say that 60 to 70% of vietnamese vocabs was derived from
> chinese vocabs then i won't accept those kind of logic.
As pointed out earlier, Vietnamese is found to have much closer kin with Mon-Khmer langauges. The Sino-Vietnamese element of the Vietnamese language is just vocabulary. To make the linguistic-genetic relationship you have to look at grammar and syntax, and linguists have found that the grammar and syntax is so different from Chinese, that they could not have had a common linguistic ancestor. That is, Chinese belongs to the Sino-Tibetan group of languages whilst Vietnamese belongs to the Mon-Khmer group of languages.
Taking the example of English again, even though a lot of french vocabulary has came into English, English is still categorised as a Germanic language (German, Norwegian, Danish, Swedish, Icelandic, Faroese, Dutch etc), but French is descended from Latin -a Romance language (others include Spanish, Italian and Romanian)
When you turn the issue to a political one, I can only present one way of looking at how things came about, since we, you and I, are the products of history, and not those who made the past what it was.
Dyl.
-
Hung Dao Dai Vuong
Re: About Sino-Tibetan languages
Dly,
I did not try to say that vietnamese is a sino-tibetan language but what i tried to say was that linguists always believe that 60 to 70 % of the vietnamese vocabs are borrowed from the chinese language. Many of these so called loaned-words are abstract nouns, adjectives or verbs etc. Linguists assume that prior to the interation with the chinese people, the vietnamese didn't have these vocabs so we have to borrow a bunch of it from china (basically they're putting down our Dong Son culture). It is true that there are vietnamese vocabs that are borrowed from china but i don't believe that up to 60 or 70 % of the vocabs are either sino-vietnamese or sinitic-vietnamese. It is possible that in the ancient time the vietnamese did come in contact with the chinese so you can't leave out the possibility that there might be some language exchanged between these two groups and quickly assume that only the chinese loaned vocabs to the vietnamese and it's not the other way around. If you say a small amount of vietnamese vocabs are borrowed from china then i think that is reasonable due to the fact of 1000 years under the occupation but if you say up to 55, 60 or 70 % of the vocabs were loaned from the chinese language then i won't accept those kind of claim.
also i think i have caused some misunderstandings when i wrote what you quoted :
"If you say that in the beginning the vietnamese and chinese
> languages were from the same language group and that's the
> reason why these two languages have many vocabs that are
> similiar with each other then i will accept that...."
I think i should have said that many vietnamese and chinese vocabs are similiar because in the ancient time these two groups might have come in contact with each other so there is a possibility of language exchange between them. Personally i don't believe vietnamese is a sino-tibetan nor mon-khmer either.
btw Dly, archaelogical diggings and remains have proven that prior to the adoption of chinese characters and roman alphabet, the vietnamese already have their own writings system but most of it was destroyed by the chinese when they enslaved the vietnamese people.
I did not try to say that vietnamese is a sino-tibetan language but what i tried to say was that linguists always believe that 60 to 70 % of the vietnamese vocabs are borrowed from the chinese language. Many of these so called loaned-words are abstract nouns, adjectives or verbs etc. Linguists assume that prior to the interation with the chinese people, the vietnamese didn't have these vocabs so we have to borrow a bunch of it from china (basically they're putting down our Dong Son culture). It is true that there are vietnamese vocabs that are borrowed from china but i don't believe that up to 60 or 70 % of the vocabs are either sino-vietnamese or sinitic-vietnamese. It is possible that in the ancient time the vietnamese did come in contact with the chinese so you can't leave out the possibility that there might be some language exchanged between these two groups and quickly assume that only the chinese loaned vocabs to the vietnamese and it's not the other way around. If you say a small amount of vietnamese vocabs are borrowed from china then i think that is reasonable due to the fact of 1000 years under the occupation but if you say up to 55, 60 or 70 % of the vocabs were loaned from the chinese language then i won't accept those kind of claim.
also i think i have caused some misunderstandings when i wrote what you quoted :
"If you say that in the beginning the vietnamese and chinese
> languages were from the same language group and that's the
> reason why these two languages have many vocabs that are
> similiar with each other then i will accept that...."
I think i should have said that many vietnamese and chinese vocabs are similiar because in the ancient time these two groups might have come in contact with each other so there is a possibility of language exchange between them. Personally i don't believe vietnamese is a sino-tibetan nor mon-khmer either.
btw Dly, archaelogical diggings and remains have proven that prior to the adoption of chinese characters and roman alphabet, the vietnamese already have their own writings system but most of it was destroyed by the chinese when they enslaved the vietnamese people.
-
Dylan Sung
Re: About Sino-Tibetan languages
Hung Dao Dai Vuong,
I don't know about the archaelogical digs, and the writing of the Dong Son culture. As you say, if the earliest Vietnamese writings are no longer extant, we cannot really know if Sino-Vietnamese words were part of that culture, or not. As I've said earlier, I do not know if the percentages of Sino-Vietnamese is that high or not, since I've never personally sat down and gone through a lexicon of Vietnamese.
The only way to find out if it is so, is to see how much early Chinese words, before Chinese came to dominate early Vietnamese there really is. I recall reading from somewhere about Chinese language issue, in that there are vocabulary usuage differences throughout the history of Chinese. This is one possible way of seeing where new words have come in and acquired.
Dyl.
I don't know about the archaelogical digs, and the writing of the Dong Son culture. As you say, if the earliest Vietnamese writings are no longer extant, we cannot really know if Sino-Vietnamese words were part of that culture, or not. As I've said earlier, I do not know if the percentages of Sino-Vietnamese is that high or not, since I've never personally sat down and gone through a lexicon of Vietnamese.
The only way to find out if it is so, is to see how much early Chinese words, before Chinese came to dominate early Vietnamese there really is. I recall reading from somewhere about Chinese language issue, in that there are vocabulary usuage differences throughout the history of Chinese. This is one possible way of seeing where new words have come in and acquired.
Dyl.
-
Na Ren
Re: About Sino-Tibetan languages
It is no shame that Viet Namese has a lot of loanwords from Chinese. English borrowed from French, Spanish took thousands of words from Arabic, Urdu took much from Arabic, and Thai took up a lot of Sanskrit. Almost every major langauge has adopted elements of another. Korea, which still debatedly employs Chinese characters to represent loanwords, takes half of its vocabulary from Chinese, and when they choose to, must write in many characters. Japanase certainly took much from Chinese. Even my country took up words such as "gwadtaow" and "cha." Even with all these Chinese words, you cannot understand the two if you are either of the speakers. Language is such a crucial factor, but the origins does not matter. Chinese culture's adoption by Viet Nam is apparent in architecture, religion, customs, music etc. If you are going to take and adapt these influences to help shape a Viet Namese culture, then what harm is adopting the words for this new stuff?
-
PC
Re: About Sino-Tibetan languages
My theory is that the Vietnamese had their native terms for abstract ideas, but because of Chinese influence they began to use Chinese terms as well. Overtime, the Vietnamese gradually threw away their native words as Chinese terms became more and more integrated into Vietnamese culture. As a result, the number of Chinese terms began to rise in the Vietnamese vocabulary. This has occured in languages such as Japanese. Originally, the Japanese had their own numbering system "hito, futa, mi, etc.," but overtime they began to use the Chinese numbering system "ichi, ni, san, etc." Today, Japanese only uses the 1st 10 numbers and 20 in the old Japanese numbering while adopting the Chinese numbering system for the rest. Therefore, it is possible that the Vietname might have thrown away their native vocabularies as they adopted Chinese vocabularies.
-
PC
Re: About Sino-Tibetan languages
I also want to point out that, historically, Chinese people are not inclined to borrow foreign terms. Of course, they have borrowed ideas from foreign countries over the course of history, they usually prefer to translate foreign terms into Chinese and adopt these new terms or invent new terms by combination of existing characters rather than borrow foreign terms directly as their own. If you look at some common modern vocabularies, you may be able to understand:
COMPUTER: Chinese use "電腦" or "electric brain" rather than how other countries such as Japanese would simply take the word and integrate it into Japanese sound "konpuuta."
TELEVISION: "電視" or "electric vision"
LASER: Although the Chinese "雷射" sounds similar to the English word, but it actually means "thunder-emission."
ELEVATOR: the word "lip" from British English "lift" is used exclusively by the Cantonese. Other Chinese people use the term "電梯" or "electric stair." Such a rare instance occurs because of the British occupation of Hong Kong until 1997. No doubt, Chinese would adopt foreign terms as their own when they are occupied by foreigner, but this does not occur very often.
Of course, ancient Chinese did borrow some words from the Hindus due to Buddhism as in Buddha ("佛" pronounced "buud" in Minnan") and Boddhisatva ("菩薩" pronounced "po sat" in Minnan"), but for the most part Chinese prefer to invent or translate these terms when knowledgeable of their meanings:
SUKHAVATI: "西方極樂世界" literally means "Western Paradise"
DHARMA: "法" or "way"
KARMA: "因果論" or "reason/result principle"
AVALOKITESVARA: Chinese even translate the names of boddhisatvas such as "觀音" lit. "observing hearing" which refers to the boddhisatva's ability to observe and hear people around the world and help them simultaneously.
Of course, the list can go on and on, and the only time when Chinese actually adopt foreign terms is in names when the meaning of the name is obscure such as:
AMITABHA: "阿彌陀" pronounced as "a1 mi2 tuo2 fo2" in Mandarin.
In contrast to the Chinese, other countries such as the Japanese and English are very willing to integrate foreign terms into their culture as it is.
In fact, these people think it's cool (no offense) to use foreign terms rather than their native words.
In ancient time, the Japanese had no writing system, and the educated were those that studied Chinese literature. These upperclass people (those in control in Japan) used Chinese words and took them as their own, and due to their power, they influenced the vocabulary of lowerclass people. In modern time, the Japanese feel that the U.S.'s world political dominance requires that they borrow English vocabularies. Therefore, such words as pureezento (present) and kamera (camera) gradually replace their older equivalents "okurimono" and "shashinki" as if speaking foreign terms gives one a higher social status. Currently, more than half, perhaps, as much as 60 to 70% of the Japanese vocabulary are of foreign origin, but it is still a distinct language with its own grammatical structure.
In the English language, the same mass borrowing occur due to the same reason of superiority. Since William I conquered England in 1066, the English language is greatly influenced by French. The upperclass people spoke French, which in turn influenced lowerclass people's vocabularies. Later on, people like Shakespeare combined Latin roots to create English words, thinking they sounded more sophisticated. Therefore, it is no wonder the English language has a very small percentage of its native vocabulary. If you look up the etymology of an English dictionary, you would probably find that nine out of ten of the words are of L (Latin), Gk (Greek), or Fr (French) origin.
To sum up my points, it is very likely that Chinese are the lenders rather than the borrowers of foreign vocabularies since Chinese people prefer to invent new vocabularies using existing words for foreign terms. It is not impossible that a language such as Vietnamese may borrow as much as 60 to 70% of its vocabualary from Chinese. Perhaps, like the Japanese and the English, the Vietnamese people of ancient time felt that using foreign terms gave them a higher status.
COMPUTER: Chinese use "電腦" or "electric brain" rather than how other countries such as Japanese would simply take the word and integrate it into Japanese sound "konpuuta."
TELEVISION: "電視" or "electric vision"
LASER: Although the Chinese "雷射" sounds similar to the English word, but it actually means "thunder-emission."
ELEVATOR: the word "lip" from British English "lift" is used exclusively by the Cantonese. Other Chinese people use the term "電梯" or "electric stair." Such a rare instance occurs because of the British occupation of Hong Kong until 1997. No doubt, Chinese would adopt foreign terms as their own when they are occupied by foreigner, but this does not occur very often.
Of course, ancient Chinese did borrow some words from the Hindus due to Buddhism as in Buddha ("佛" pronounced "buud" in Minnan") and Boddhisatva ("菩薩" pronounced "po sat" in Minnan"), but for the most part Chinese prefer to invent or translate these terms when knowledgeable of their meanings:
SUKHAVATI: "西方極樂世界" literally means "Western Paradise"
DHARMA: "法" or "way"
KARMA: "因果論" or "reason/result principle"
AVALOKITESVARA: Chinese even translate the names of boddhisatvas such as "觀音" lit. "observing hearing" which refers to the boddhisatva's ability to observe and hear people around the world and help them simultaneously.
Of course, the list can go on and on, and the only time when Chinese actually adopt foreign terms is in names when the meaning of the name is obscure such as:
AMITABHA: "阿彌陀" pronounced as "a1 mi2 tuo2 fo2" in Mandarin.
In contrast to the Chinese, other countries such as the Japanese and English are very willing to integrate foreign terms into their culture as it is.
In fact, these people think it's cool (no offense) to use foreign terms rather than their native words.
In ancient time, the Japanese had no writing system, and the educated were those that studied Chinese literature. These upperclass people (those in control in Japan) used Chinese words and took them as their own, and due to their power, they influenced the vocabulary of lowerclass people. In modern time, the Japanese feel that the U.S.'s world political dominance requires that they borrow English vocabularies. Therefore, such words as pureezento (present) and kamera (camera) gradually replace their older equivalents "okurimono" and "shashinki" as if speaking foreign terms gives one a higher social status. Currently, more than half, perhaps, as much as 60 to 70% of the Japanese vocabulary are of foreign origin, but it is still a distinct language with its own grammatical structure.
In the English language, the same mass borrowing occur due to the same reason of superiority. Since William I conquered England in 1066, the English language is greatly influenced by French. The upperclass people spoke French, which in turn influenced lowerclass people's vocabularies. Later on, people like Shakespeare combined Latin roots to create English words, thinking they sounded more sophisticated. Therefore, it is no wonder the English language has a very small percentage of its native vocabulary. If you look up the etymology of an English dictionary, you would probably find that nine out of ten of the words are of L (Latin), Gk (Greek), or Fr (French) origin.
To sum up my points, it is very likely that Chinese are the lenders rather than the borrowers of foreign vocabularies since Chinese people prefer to invent new vocabularies using existing words for foreign terms. It is not impossible that a language such as Vietnamese may borrow as much as 60 to 70% of its vocabualary from Chinese. Perhaps, like the Japanese and the English, the Vietnamese people of ancient time felt that using foreign terms gave them a higher status.
-
Yue
Re: About Sino-Tibetan languages
Because of the strong influence of the Chinese language, it is hard to track down the origin of the Vietnamese language. As a branch of the Yue (or Viet) people in Southern China, the ancient Vietnamese language is related to some minorities who are also the descendent of the Yue people. One of these minorities is the Zhuang minority of Guang-Xi (Quang Tay), north of Vietnam. It used to have a writing script similar to Chinese but not Chinese, just like the Chu Nom of Vietnam. Zhuang is believed to be the descendent of Luo Yue (Lac Viet). Unlike the other Yue people, the Zhuang is not completely assimilated by the Chinese, like the Cantonese. Today, the Zhuang uses the Latin Alphabet to write their language. Thus, the Zhuang language should give us some clue which language family the ancient Vietnamese language belongs to.
The Burmese and Thai belong to the Sino-Tibetan language. The Khmer does not but Khmer and Vietnamese are completely different.
The Burmese and Thai belong to the Sino-Tibetan language. The Khmer does not but Khmer and Vietnamese are completely different.
-
Kobo-Daishi
Re: About Sino-Tibetan languages
Dear Yue,
> Thus, the Zhuang language should give us some clue which language family the ancient Vietnamese language belongs to.
According to “The Languages Of China” by Professor S. Robert Ramsey, “Zhuang” belongs to the Tai language family to which the “Thai” of Thailand and the “Lao” of Laos also belong. If Vietnamese belongs to the Mon-Khmer language family, as most linguistic experts now believe, then it falls outside of the Tai language family.
> Unlike the other Yue people, the Zhuang is not completely assimilated by the Chinese, like the Cantonese.
The following passages are from the “The Languages of China”:
“Most of the non-Chinese people in South China are Tai. They are culturally and linguistically related to (but not identical to) the Thai, or Siamese, of Thailand.
The millions of Tai living among the Chinese in South China are an almost invisible presence. The only groups among them who command attention are the colorful Dai of Yunnan, who have been heavily influenced by the Burmese, and the warlike Li of Hainan Island, who are anything but invisible. With these two important exceptions, the Tai all look and act Chinese. They farm the same way; they wear the same clothes. Most are completely bilingual in the local Chinese dialect. About the only significant thing that sets them apart is their home language, which is a variety of Tai instead of one of the similar-sounding Southern dialects of Chinese.”
“The Zhuang are China’s largest minority by far. According to government figures, there are over 13,300,000 living in South China.”
“In the late 1950s, as evidence of its good faith with minorities, the Communist Party decided to create new autonomous regions, including one for the Zhuang in Guangxi Province. The problem with the proposal in this particular case was that it involved making an autonomous region out of a province where the Chinese outnumbered minorities-according to official estimates, the Zhuang comprised only about 33 percent of the population of Guangxi. Moreover, most of the Zhuang themselves professed not to want minority status, preferring instead to be considered Chinese.”
----------
Then it goes on to relate a very funny story of how the government tried to convince a great many people who claimed to be Han Chinese that they were really not Han Chinese and that they were really Zhuang and that they had been repressed during the former government and that it was okay to express who they truly were.
So the figures for the number of Zhuang are really questionable since the government may have registered many ethnically Han as Zhuang.
Kobo-Daishi, PLLA.
> Thus, the Zhuang language should give us some clue which language family the ancient Vietnamese language belongs to.
According to “The Languages Of China” by Professor S. Robert Ramsey, “Zhuang” belongs to the Tai language family to which the “Thai” of Thailand and the “Lao” of Laos also belong. If Vietnamese belongs to the Mon-Khmer language family, as most linguistic experts now believe, then it falls outside of the Tai language family.
> Unlike the other Yue people, the Zhuang is not completely assimilated by the Chinese, like the Cantonese.
The following passages are from the “The Languages of China”:
“Most of the non-Chinese people in South China are Tai. They are culturally and linguistically related to (but not identical to) the Thai, or Siamese, of Thailand.
The millions of Tai living among the Chinese in South China are an almost invisible presence. The only groups among them who command attention are the colorful Dai of Yunnan, who have been heavily influenced by the Burmese, and the warlike Li of Hainan Island, who are anything but invisible. With these two important exceptions, the Tai all look and act Chinese. They farm the same way; they wear the same clothes. Most are completely bilingual in the local Chinese dialect. About the only significant thing that sets them apart is their home language, which is a variety of Tai instead of one of the similar-sounding Southern dialects of Chinese.”
“The Zhuang are China’s largest minority by far. According to government figures, there are over 13,300,000 living in South China.”
“In the late 1950s, as evidence of its good faith with minorities, the Communist Party decided to create new autonomous regions, including one for the Zhuang in Guangxi Province. The problem with the proposal in this particular case was that it involved making an autonomous region out of a province where the Chinese outnumbered minorities-according to official estimates, the Zhuang comprised only about 33 percent of the population of Guangxi. Moreover, most of the Zhuang themselves professed not to want minority status, preferring instead to be considered Chinese.”
----------
Then it goes on to relate a very funny story of how the government tried to convince a great many people who claimed to be Han Chinese that they were really not Han Chinese and that they were really Zhuang and that they had been repressed during the former government and that it was okay to express who they truly were.
So the figures for the number of Zhuang are really questionable since the government may have registered many ethnically Han as Zhuang.
Kobo-Daishi, PLLA.
-
Yue
Re: About Sino-Tibetan languages
Dear Kobo-Daishi,
The Zhuang minority in China call themself as pou-tsung, bu-dai, pho-thai, pu-to, ...... Obviously, the Zhuang has a lot of Dai influence in its language and is classified in the same group as Dai. As a minority, it is understandable. However, Zhuang language contains a lot of ancient Yue language. Maybe, the ancient Yue does belong to the Thai family.
The Zhuang writing can be found on the Chinese RenMinBi. It is in Latin alphabet.
Yue
The Zhuang minority in China call themself as pou-tsung, bu-dai, pho-thai, pu-to, ...... Obviously, the Zhuang has a lot of Dai influence in its language and is classified in the same group as Dai. As a minority, it is understandable. However, Zhuang language contains a lot of ancient Yue language. Maybe, the ancient Yue does belong to the Thai family.
The Zhuang writing can be found on the Chinese RenMinBi. It is in Latin alphabet.
Yue