Hokkiens Also Originally Not Chinese???
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Hokkien Lang
Hokkiens Also Originally Not Chinese???
Historically it was claimed that Hokkiens originated from tribal groups inhabiting the Central Yangtze Valley who were pushed south-east towards the Fujian Province by the Northerners who subsequently subdued them and imposed their culture and character-writing on them as well as considered them as part of Han Chinese. But the fact that the Hokkien language differs vastly from Mandarin indicates that Hokkiens were originally not Chinese!!! What do you have to say?
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KCTan
Re: Hokkiens Also Originally Not Chinese???
Bo eng bo iau kin
Wu pat lang ai chham ka
kam sia
Wu pat lang ai chham ka
kam sia
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BHYeo
Re: Hokkiens Also Originally Not Chinese???
There are various theories on the origin of the Hokkiens. Basically, I agree that they were originally not Chinese.
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PPK
Re: Hokkiens Also Originally Not Chinese???
should say that they were different from the tribes in the central plains in the beginning. when it comes to 'chinese', china already had a unified country plus a centralised govt, and ppl in hokkien, like ppl in other parts of china, were already part of the 'chinese' family.
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Ken
Re: Hokkiens Also Originally Not Chinese???
Hi,
It depends on how you define the term 'Chinese'. If you go by the strict definition of 'Han Chinese' from the very early Qin & Han dynasties, then only 30% of the present mainland Chinese population are true Chinese.
The Present Chinese Nation and Han Chinese Race were formed through a long and arduous process of territorial expansion from the yellow river regions, assimilation of different peoples that included ancient northern Han Chinese, Mongols, Manchurians, western minorities and the southern tribes. Much but not all of the Hokkien ancestry could be traced to these southern tribes who were originally not Han Chinese. In, fact these southern tribes originally spoke languages closely associated with the southwestern minorities in China, who till now are still not Han people. They are usually called the 'Yue' people.
In fact, contrary to older theories, Hokkien was actually brought down by Han Chinese from the north, who interacted with these southern tribes and subsequently assimilated them into the Han Culture thru both peaceful and forceful ways. Hokkien therefore was essentially one of the languages spoken by northern Han Chinese but also had some influences from the southern tribal languages.
In fact, in the beginning, the northern Han Chinese spoke languages quite similar to Southern dialects like Hokkien, Hakka & Cantonese. Due to war & famines, they migrated to the south and brought with them those languages. Those who remained in the north were continually influenced in their language by the invading northern tribes that included the Khitans, tartars and the Mongols, which resulted in the evoluition of the present Mandarin language.
So, in terms of human genetics, one can say that part of the Hokkien ancestry are that of the northern Han Chinese and the other part would be that of the ancient southern tribes or Yue; but in terms of language, Hokkien is essentially an ancient Han Chinese language that originated from the north.
It depends on how you define the term 'Chinese'. If you go by the strict definition of 'Han Chinese' from the very early Qin & Han dynasties, then only 30% of the present mainland Chinese population are true Chinese.
The Present Chinese Nation and Han Chinese Race were formed through a long and arduous process of territorial expansion from the yellow river regions, assimilation of different peoples that included ancient northern Han Chinese, Mongols, Manchurians, western minorities and the southern tribes. Much but not all of the Hokkien ancestry could be traced to these southern tribes who were originally not Han Chinese. In, fact these southern tribes originally spoke languages closely associated with the southwestern minorities in China, who till now are still not Han people. They are usually called the 'Yue' people.
In fact, contrary to older theories, Hokkien was actually brought down by Han Chinese from the north, who interacted with these southern tribes and subsequently assimilated them into the Han Culture thru both peaceful and forceful ways. Hokkien therefore was essentially one of the languages spoken by northern Han Chinese but also had some influences from the southern tribal languages.
In fact, in the beginning, the northern Han Chinese spoke languages quite similar to Southern dialects like Hokkien, Hakka & Cantonese. Due to war & famines, they migrated to the south and brought with them those languages. Those who remained in the north were continually influenced in their language by the invading northern tribes that included the Khitans, tartars and the Mongols, which resulted in the evoluition of the present Mandarin language.
So, in terms of human genetics, one can say that part of the Hokkien ancestry are that of the northern Han Chinese and the other part would be that of the ancient southern tribes or Yue; but in terms of language, Hokkien is essentially an ancient Han Chinese language that originated from the north.
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hokkien person
Re: Hokkiens Also Originally Not Chinese???
hell yes, hokkien ARE chinese, and always will be
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Lan Fang Republic
Re: Hokkiens Also Originally Not Chinese???
Well, I agree with Ken, because during Han & Qin dynasty most of southern area (that is now part of China, including some Fujian, Guangdong, Yunnan) wasn't ruled by Han & Qin's emperor. Because of 'insane' expansion of those next emperors that today China formed. ^_^
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NG ML
Re: Hokkiens Also Originally Not Chinese???
Try explaining the origin of these words in Hokkien and advicse if they are found in other Chinese dailects:
our - lan(4)
want - bok(4)
sleep - Khoon (3)
don't have - boh (2)
male - ta(1) poh(1)
female - char(1) boh(4)
type - khwan(4)
can -eh(3) sai(4)
I am of the view that Hokkien people are of different origin, like the Yue and Vietnamese who later assimilated with the invading Hans, as a result the Grammar and language underwent changes.
our - lan(4)
want - bok(4)
sleep - Khoon (3)
don't have - boh (2)
male - ta(1) poh(1)
female - char(1) boh(4)
type - khwan(4)
can -eh(3) sai(4)
I am of the view that Hokkien people are of different origin, like the Yue and Vietnamese who later assimilated with the invading Hans, as a result the Grammar and language underwent changes.
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ppk
Re: Hokkiens Also Originally Not Chinese???
either you are weak in hokkien or chinese, or both. (simplified chinese fonts below)
our- lan2 or lang2, ren2(人) in chinese, from wa lang, wo3ren2 （我人） in 安ancient chinese, abbriviated to lang2. correct in ancient chinese. (them, yi1ren2 伊人, them, as in third party, bi1 ren2 彼人， and later on, ta1 ren2 他人 )
want - never heard of bok4
sleep - khoon3, kun4（睏) in chinese, jiangsu and zhejiang area still uses kun4jiao4 instead of shui4jiao4 for 'sleeping'. refer to lu xun, story of ah Q.
dont have - boh2 , should be boh2 in chinese too. the word cannot be found in common chinese dictionaries, and its no longer in use. go to a decent library and refer to the bigger volumes of chinese dictionaries in the reference section. its a you3(有) without the 2 strokes inside.
type - khwan 4, kuan3(款) in chinese, 款式is used in modern chinese for type, pattern, style and choice.
can - eh3 sai4, eh3 is probably a meaningless vowel. sai=shi3 (使 as in shi3 yong4使用. some hokkien like to refer it to 驶 as in 'driving'. 'can drive', meaning 'its working' )
our- lan2 or lang2, ren2(人) in chinese, from wa lang, wo3ren2 （我人） in 安ancient chinese, abbriviated to lang2. correct in ancient chinese. (them, yi1ren2 伊人, them, as in third party, bi1 ren2 彼人， and later on, ta1 ren2 他人 )
want - never heard of bok4
sleep - khoon3, kun4（睏) in chinese, jiangsu and zhejiang area still uses kun4jiao4 instead of shui4jiao4 for 'sleeping'. refer to lu xun, story of ah Q.
dont have - boh2 , should be boh2 in chinese too. the word cannot be found in common chinese dictionaries, and its no longer in use. go to a decent library and refer to the bigger volumes of chinese dictionaries in the reference section. its a you3(有) without the 2 strokes inside.
type - khwan 4, kuan3(款) in chinese, 款式is used in modern chinese for type, pattern, style and choice.
can - eh3 sai4, eh3 is probably a meaningless vowel. sai=shi3 (使 as in shi3 yong4使用. some hokkien like to refer it to 驶 as in 'driving'. 'can drive', meaning 'its working' )