Hokkiens Also Originally Not Chinese???
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ppk
Re: Hokkiens Also Originally Not Chinese???
correction, eh3 is probably the abbreviated/mutated version of hui4(会), or huey3 in hokkien, meaning 'capable of'.
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annie
Re: Hokkiens Also Originally Not Chinese???
Hi,
I am not into the argument, but I am keen to learn Chaozhou (Teochiu) Dialect, is there anyone who can teach me some basic pronounciations? I will be so grateful. Thank you in advance.
Yours,
Annie
I am not into the argument, but I am keen to learn Chaozhou (Teochiu) Dialect, is there anyone who can teach me some basic pronounciations? I will be so grateful. Thank you in advance.
Yours,
Annie
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Aurelio
Re: Hokkiens Also Originally Not Chinese???
Hi ppk:
Very interesting. Didn't know that about "wo-ren" and "kun", either. I guess NG meant "beh" by "bok", as in "Gua behki buey mihkia" (supposed to be 'I'm going shopping'). Any opinion on that?
Regards,
Aurelio
Very interesting. Didn't know that about "wo-ren" and "kun", either. I guess NG meant "beh" by "bok", as in "Gua behki buey mihkia" (supposed to be 'I'm going shopping'). Any opinion on that?
Regards,
Aurelio
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ppk
Re: Hokkiens Also Originally Not Chinese???
i am not sure, but guess its abbreviated from beh xiong, or ma'shang(马上) in chinese. guess its a rather recent usage and not a refined word too.
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Niuc
Re: Hokkiens Also Originally Not Chinese???
Hokkien clearly differentiates 'lan' 咱 (inclusive we: including you) from 'gun'/'guan' 阮 (exclusive we: excluding you). This feature is a characteristic of Austronesian languages. Both 'lan' & 'gun'/'guan' are Sinitic, but the usage may be influenced by Yue/Austronesian.
Although in Mandarin 咱們 za2men5 means inclusive we; 我們 wo3men5 can be used as both inclusive and exclusive we; just like "we" in English. This is also true for other Chinese languages, isn't it?
It's quite interesting to notice that plural pronouns in Hokkien are formed by adding 'n' to singular pronouns:
我 'gua' (I) + '-n' -> 'guan'/'gun' (exclusive we)
你 'ly'/'li'/'lu' (singular you) + '-n' -> 'lin' (plural you)
伊 'i' (he/she/it) + '-n' -> 'in' (they)
Those plural pronouns can be combined with 人 'lang' (human) as emphasis: 'lan lang', 'gun lang', 'lin lang', 'in lang'.
Aurelio, g in 'gun'/'guan' is same as g in "good". It's not 'kun'.
PPK, is 馬上 ma3shang4 (Mandarin) pronounced as 'bei siong' in your Hokkien? In mine, it's always 'ma siong' and it's a literary/refined word.
Although in Mandarin 咱們 za2men5 means inclusive we; 我們 wo3men5 can be used as both inclusive and exclusive we; just like "we" in English. This is also true for other Chinese languages, isn't it?
It's quite interesting to notice that plural pronouns in Hokkien are formed by adding 'n' to singular pronouns:
我 'gua' (I) + '-n' -> 'guan'/'gun' (exclusive we)
你 'ly'/'li'/'lu' (singular you) + '-n' -> 'lin' (plural you)
伊 'i' (he/she/it) + '-n' -> 'in' (they)
Those plural pronouns can be combined with 人 'lang' (human) as emphasis: 'lan lang', 'gun lang', 'lin lang', 'in lang'.
Aurelio, g in 'gun'/'guan' is same as g in "good". It's not 'kun'.
PPK, is 馬上 ma3shang4 (Mandarin) pronounced as 'bei siong' in your Hokkien? In mine, it's always 'ma siong' and it's a literary/refined word.
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ppk
Re: Hokkiens Also Originally Not Chinese???
should be ma siong... as i said, just a guess...
in some northeast china region za'men is used to indicate 'you' or 'plural you' too.
in some northeast china region za'men is used to indicate 'you' or 'plural you' too.
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Aurelio
Re: Hokkiens Also Originally Not Chinese???
Hi:
The beh (or beq, bo', bö') I mean is used somewhat like "I will", "I am going to" in English. It's definitely not derived from mă (horse) because it has a glottal stop [?] at the end ([be?]). It's definitely not vulgar usage, either, although some people prefer Hokkien ăi (Mandarin ài) [Gua ai khi Tiongkok] instead of [Gua be? khi Tiongkok].
My 1998 Xiamen Fangyan Cidian has 10 entries with [be?], the most commonly used ones being probably simply [be?] in the sense of Mandarin kuài-yào, jiangyào to express the near future and Hokkien [be?-si] for Mandarin ruguo or yaoshi - if. Douglas' "Dictionary of the Vernacular or Spoken Language of Amoy" has it, too (that's more than a hundred years old), same for Bodman's "Amoy Hokkien" from the 50s (Spoken Language Services) and "Elementary Hokkien" (Intellectual Publishing, Singapore, recent).
Most people seem to use the "yào" character (Mandarin) to write it, but the Xiamen Fangyan Cidian explains:
"yao/ [be'] is a spoken character, the book-character is unknown (bĕn-zì wèixiáng). Popularily (mínjian), it is often written "bŭ" (the character that looks like the right hand side of wài as in wàiguoren)".
Some people use Mandarin yù (to wish, "yuk"), too, but I think that's phonetically unlikely.
Regards
Aurelio
The beh (or beq, bo', bö') I mean is used somewhat like "I will", "I am going to" in English. It's definitely not derived from mă (horse) because it has a glottal stop [?] at the end ([be?]). It's definitely not vulgar usage, either, although some people prefer Hokkien ăi (Mandarin ài) [Gua ai khi Tiongkok] instead of [Gua be? khi Tiongkok].
My 1998 Xiamen Fangyan Cidian has 10 entries with [be?], the most commonly used ones being probably simply [be?] in the sense of Mandarin kuài-yào, jiangyào to express the near future and Hokkien [be?-si] for Mandarin ruguo or yaoshi - if. Douglas' "Dictionary of the Vernacular or Spoken Language of Amoy" has it, too (that's more than a hundred years old), same for Bodman's "Amoy Hokkien" from the 50s (Spoken Language Services) and "Elementary Hokkien" (Intellectual Publishing, Singapore, recent).
Most people seem to use the "yào" character (Mandarin) to write it, but the Xiamen Fangyan Cidian explains:
"yao/ [be'] is a spoken character, the book-character is unknown (bĕn-zì wèixiáng). Popularily (mínjian), it is often written "bŭ" (the character that looks like the right hand side of wài as in wàiguoren)".
Some people use Mandarin yù (to wish, "yuk"), too, but I think that's phonetically unlikely.
Regards
Aurelio
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Aurelio
Re: Hokkiens Also Originally Not Chinese???
Hi Niuc:
I meant wo3ren2 (gun) and kun4 (khun) - didn't know EITHER of these in Mandarin
Thanks, though!
Regards
Aurelio
I meant wo3ren2 (gun) and kun4 (khun) - didn't know EITHER of these in Mandarin
Thanks, though!Regards
Aurelio
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Niuc
Re: Hokkiens Also Originally Not Chinese???
Hi Aurelio & PPK, thanks for your info. Sorry that I misunderstood your postings. 
Aurelio, I agree that 'bei' for "want/will" is not derived from 'bei' for "horse". In my dialect (同安 Tang-ua* Hokkien): want/will is 'be' ('e' as in "her"); horse is 'bei' ('ei' as in "heir"); hence are totally two different pronounciation.
I also agree that 'be' is not vulgar. In my dialect, usage of 'be' and 'ai' for "want/will" are slightly different. 'ai' tends to means "like".
Are those dictionaries/books still in sale? I can't find them in Amazon, not even the recent "Elementary Hokkien". I'll look for that one in shops here in Singapore but any info about those older ones? Thanks a lot.
About 'bok' meaning "want", is it 慕 (Mdr: mu4) as in 渴慕 (Mdr: ke3mu4 -> yearn/desire). But this word more likely is a literary word.
I think 'ei sai' (can/allowed) should be written as 會許. 許 (Mdr: xu3) means 'allow' in Mandarin, as in 許可 xu3ke3, 容許 rong2xu3. Since the word 婿/壻 is 'xu4' in Mandarin and 'sai~' in Hokkien, it's logical that 許 (xu3) is 'sai'.
會 (Mdr: hui4) can be pronunced as 'ei', 'ue', 'huei', 'he' in Hokkien, depends on context and/or dialects.
Aurelio, I agree that 'bei' for "want/will" is not derived from 'bei' for "horse". In my dialect (同安 Tang-ua* Hokkien): want/will is 'be' ('e' as in "her"); horse is 'bei' ('ei' as in "heir"); hence are totally two different pronounciation.
I also agree that 'be' is not vulgar. In my dialect, usage of 'be' and 'ai' for "want/will" are slightly different. 'ai' tends to means "like".
Are those dictionaries/books still in sale? I can't find them in Amazon, not even the recent "Elementary Hokkien". I'll look for that one in shops here in Singapore but any info about those older ones? Thanks a lot.
About 'bok' meaning "want", is it 慕 (Mdr: mu4) as in 渴慕 (Mdr: ke3mu4 -> yearn/desire). But this word more likely is a literary word.
I think 'ei sai' (can/allowed) should be written as 會許. 許 (Mdr: xu3) means 'allow' in Mandarin, as in 許可 xu3ke3, 容許 rong2xu3. Since the word 婿/壻 is 'xu4' in Mandarin and 'sai~' in Hokkien, it's logical that 許 (xu3) is 'sai'.
會 (Mdr: hui4) can be pronunced as 'ei', 'ue', 'huei', 'he' in Hokkien, depends on context and/or dialects.
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Aurelio
Re: Hokkiens Also Originally Not Chinese???
Hi Niuc:
Actually, I bought both dictionaries in Singapore, so you might be in luck! Takashimaya has (or had two years ago?) a very nice cultural bookstore, I think it was on the ground level. The "Elementary Hokkien" was bought in a bookstore in a shopping mall somewhere in Orchard Road (but that one might be less interesting to you, it's more like a very short introdution to the language, i.e. a phrase-book + CD). The dictionaries, however, are great (the old one is a reprint). I will send you the exact titles tomorrow. "Spoken Amoy Hokkien" is a very extensive language course from the 50s. It's available via "Spoken Language Service" on the internet.
Regards,
Aurelio
Actually, I bought both dictionaries in Singapore, so you might be in luck! Takashimaya has (or had two years ago?) a very nice cultural bookstore, I think it was on the ground level. The "Elementary Hokkien" was bought in a bookstore in a shopping mall somewhere in Orchard Road (but that one might be less interesting to you, it's more like a very short introdution to the language, i.e. a phrase-book + CD). The dictionaries, however, are great (the old one is a reprint). I will send you the exact titles tomorrow. "Spoken Amoy Hokkien" is a very extensive language course from the 50s. It's available via "Spoken Language Service" on the internet.
Regards,
Aurelio