Loon Kong,
It is always interesting to speculate about borrowings between Hokkien and Malay, as there are many well-documented transfers both ways.
However, when you start to try to find borrowings between Mandarin and Malay, or even try to link everyday English words to Hokkien words, without explaining how or when the borrowing could have happened, you expose yourself to ridicule.
The word chair is clearly descended from Middle English chaiere, itself descended from the Middle French word which takes the form chaise in Modern French. If you want to look for more coincidental similarities, how about theh8 提 which is take in English. I am sure that has a very well-documented Old English etymology as well.
As for Mandarin and Malay, you also need to explain when and how the borrowings take place. Mandarin in its current form is very new - e.g. Pei-king was a reasonably accurate representation of the 19th-century Mandarin pronunciation of 北京, so j sounds are quite new, and in any case there was little or no Mandarin spoken in Malaya until 1911, and even then it was never really used in everyday speech.
As for ke3 lian2 and ke3 xi1, my Hokkien dictionary gives kho2-lin5, kho2-lien5, kho2-siong1, kho2-sioh4 and kho2-sek4 (Chiangchiu). None of these are particularly like kisien. In fact I find it hard to transcribe kisien in normal Hokkien romanisation because to my ear it doesn't sound very Hokkien - the k is neither k nor kh, and the first i is too short, like an IPA .
There has been some previous discussion of kahwin on this board, which you might want to search for. I think someone said that there was a Cantonese/Taishanese phrase which was similar.
Penang Hokkien
-
Niuc
Re: Penang Hokkien
Hi all 
Andrew, it's been a while not "seeing" you around. I agree with you (i.e. your posting above).
Loon Kong, thanks for the info about 'mabok'. In our dialect, it is 'ba5 bok8' (麻木 ma2mu4 in Mandarin) and the meaning is "numb"/"apathetic". We never use it to mean [any degree of] drunk. Btw in formal Indonesian, drunk is "mabuk".
Surely our ancestors were not chauvinists as they didn't just give to but also took from other cultures. What I mean as chauvinism is: when there is a similar word or custom or other, without concrete proofs we assert that they borrowed from us.
English etymology can be found in Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary: http://m-w.com/ .
[%sig%]
Andrew, it's been a while not "seeing" you around. I agree with you (i.e. your posting above).
Loon Kong, thanks for the info about 'mabok'. In our dialect, it is 'ba5 bok8' (麻木 ma2mu4 in Mandarin) and the meaning is "numb"/"apathetic". We never use it to mean [any degree of] drunk. Btw in formal Indonesian, drunk is "mabuk".
Surely our ancestors were not chauvinists as they didn't just give to but also took from other cultures. What I mean as chauvinism is: when there is a similar word or custom or other, without concrete proofs we assert that they borrowed from us.
English etymology can be found in Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary: http://m-w.com/ .
[%sig%]
-
hong
Re: Penang Hokkien
suka(sukha) is surely sanskrit although it is not a verb in sanskrit but just adjective or combine with other to form noun.
kampong is surely Khmer because malay penisula was under Funan 1500 years ago.
kampong is surely Khmer because malay penisula was under Funan 1500 years ago.
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Tang Loon Kong
Re: Penang Hokkien
Ladies and Gentlemen
If I want to start a meaningful discussion on any unconventional matter, it is ridicule that I must expect. There is no point for discussion if anyone is afraid from being ridiculed because in opening a 'pandora's' box, one becomes unconventional. We will have to be at the sharp end of things to stay in fruitful discussion because we break "glass houses" which also means creating 'cognitive dissonance'.
Sometimes, when one suggests something interesting, proof should be the furthest away because the proof that we look for would be unrecognisable even if it were right in front of our eyes because of the long passage of time, and the absence of written records. Instead, the suggestion of linkages, even though they may sound improbable, must be pondered, especially if there have been so many such linkages among the languages. Is it a coincident or something else worth investigating? In the absence or in the presence of non-confirming proofs, we can only suggest logically. This is definitely not speculation.
Some of this so-called proofs will have to be examined carefully, because the research could be done on a 'secluded' basis. This is not to imply that they are wrong technically, but are absolutely right bearing in mind the context the research was done in a long, long time ago in a very different era.
In addition, when we discuss two or more different languages, I think it is incorrect to try to 'standardize' the discussion be relying on standards that are imposed by only one language because the so called 'standards' would be very and entirely different from each other. The presence of popular historical records for one does not give concrete and overlording confirmation over the other that has not.
We are definitely not talking about "Y = MX + C" here in this forum.
Let look at word "agak" which means literally "about" in Malay. In Penang Hokkien, there is a word called, "agiak" which also means also about. This word is used when one buys something, and "goh koh agiak" which means about five dollars. Additionally, "giak" is usually used to denote substantiality. Hence is "agak" "agiak"? Well, there is no proof for this either, as some would easily claim. Some would label it specualtion since they are no written records.
As for the word "mabok", Nuic could perhaps persude himself that state of drunkedness is not only the end result of excessive drinking. However being "jui" is knowing before hand, the drunkard has drunk a bit too much. Therefore, being "mabok" means the end condition that is relevent, and not necessarily a result of too much drinking. Other causes may be responsible. Hence, mabok would be the state of drunkardness which does not necessarily mean a person drinks too much.
I am still looking for 'laksa', 'keliling' and 'panduan'. What do you ladies and gentlemen think?
Thanking you all once again
Tang Loon Kong
Shanghai, China
If I want to start a meaningful discussion on any unconventional matter, it is ridicule that I must expect. There is no point for discussion if anyone is afraid from being ridiculed because in opening a 'pandora's' box, one becomes unconventional. We will have to be at the sharp end of things to stay in fruitful discussion because we break "glass houses" which also means creating 'cognitive dissonance'.
Sometimes, when one suggests something interesting, proof should be the furthest away because the proof that we look for would be unrecognisable even if it were right in front of our eyes because of the long passage of time, and the absence of written records. Instead, the suggestion of linkages, even though they may sound improbable, must be pondered, especially if there have been so many such linkages among the languages. Is it a coincident or something else worth investigating? In the absence or in the presence of non-confirming proofs, we can only suggest logically. This is definitely not speculation.
Some of this so-called proofs will have to be examined carefully, because the research could be done on a 'secluded' basis. This is not to imply that they are wrong technically, but are absolutely right bearing in mind the context the research was done in a long, long time ago in a very different era.
In addition, when we discuss two or more different languages, I think it is incorrect to try to 'standardize' the discussion be relying on standards that are imposed by only one language because the so called 'standards' would be very and entirely different from each other. The presence of popular historical records for one does not give concrete and overlording confirmation over the other that has not.
We are definitely not talking about "Y = MX + C" here in this forum.
Let look at word "agak" which means literally "about" in Malay. In Penang Hokkien, there is a word called, "agiak" which also means also about. This word is used when one buys something, and "goh koh agiak" which means about five dollars. Additionally, "giak" is usually used to denote substantiality. Hence is "agak" "agiak"? Well, there is no proof for this either, as some would easily claim. Some would label it specualtion since they are no written records.
As for the word "mabok", Nuic could perhaps persude himself that state of drunkedness is not only the end result of excessive drinking. However being "jui" is knowing before hand, the drunkard has drunk a bit too much. Therefore, being "mabok" means the end condition that is relevent, and not necessarily a result of too much drinking. Other causes may be responsible. Hence, mabok would be the state of drunkardness which does not necessarily mean a person drinks too much.
I am still looking for 'laksa', 'keliling' and 'panduan'. What do you ladies and gentlemen think?
Thanking you all once again
Tang Loon Kong
Shanghai, China
-
Andrew Yong
Re: Penang Hokkien
Niuc, thanks for the welcome
Loon Kong, clearly there are similarities are well explained by the idea that words are borrowed by one language from another. For example, loteng, beca, mi, teh, kicap, etc. on the one hand, and tapi, suka, tuala, batu, etc. on the other
Other words are similar because they have a common ancestor - sekai is clearly a borrowed word in Korean and Japanese, but in Hokkien and Cantonese there is no reason to believe that they were borrowed by one from the other since they both had a common ancestor in Middle Chinese. Also, it is obvious that the Korean and Japanese words could not have been borrowed from Modern Hokkien, but from some form of Middle Chinese.
Other similarities are due to natural reasons. For example, the word niau is clearly onomatopoeic: cats make the same sound wherever they are in the world. It is also no great surprise that the first sound most babies make is mama, and that is the word for mother in nearly all languages around the world.
However, when the English word is Mouse, the Dutch word is Muis, the German word is Maus, the Danish, Swedish, Norwegian and Old English word is Mus, it is difficult to see how the most obvious etymology is that it came from a language five thousand miles away in the form of niau-chhu. Not least because one would wonder what the English called their mice before they borrowed the Hokkien word! The niau in niau-chhu, incidentally is said by some Hokkien scholars to be a variant of lau (old). Others say it is the same niau as cat.
Clearly no-one is expecting 100% proof, but it is easy enough at least to check English dictionaries, Hokkien dictionaries, Malay dictionaries, etc. and to consider the plausibility of the etymologies given by the authorities before coming to a different conclusion. If you disagree with them afterwards that is fine - I for example wonder why English dictionaries say that ketchup comes from the Hokkien for preserved fish sauce. Surely the ke/koe in the word for fruit, or the koe/koa in the word for melon/gourd would be more obvious than preserved fish?
I find the link between sin-sE~ and sensei interesting. In Amoy Hokkien it is sien-si~. Are there other examples of Japanese losing a final -n or -ng?
A.
Loon Kong, clearly there are similarities are well explained by the idea that words are borrowed by one language from another. For example, loteng, beca, mi, teh, kicap, etc. on the one hand, and tapi, suka, tuala, batu, etc. on the other
Other words are similar because they have a common ancestor - sekai is clearly a borrowed word in Korean and Japanese, but in Hokkien and Cantonese there is no reason to believe that they were borrowed by one from the other since they both had a common ancestor in Middle Chinese. Also, it is obvious that the Korean and Japanese words could not have been borrowed from Modern Hokkien, but from some form of Middle Chinese.
Other similarities are due to natural reasons. For example, the word niau is clearly onomatopoeic: cats make the same sound wherever they are in the world. It is also no great surprise that the first sound most babies make is mama, and that is the word for mother in nearly all languages around the world.
However, when the English word is Mouse, the Dutch word is Muis, the German word is Maus, the Danish, Swedish, Norwegian and Old English word is Mus, it is difficult to see how the most obvious etymology is that it came from a language five thousand miles away in the form of niau-chhu. Not least because one would wonder what the English called their mice before they borrowed the Hokkien word! The niau in niau-chhu, incidentally is said by some Hokkien scholars to be a variant of lau (old). Others say it is the same niau as cat.
Clearly no-one is expecting 100% proof, but it is easy enough at least to check English dictionaries, Hokkien dictionaries, Malay dictionaries, etc. and to consider the plausibility of the etymologies given by the authorities before coming to a different conclusion. If you disagree with them afterwards that is fine - I for example wonder why English dictionaries say that ketchup comes from the Hokkien for preserved fish sauce. Surely the ke/koe in the word for fruit, or the koe/koa in the word for melon/gourd would be more obvious than preserved fish?
I find the link between sin-sE~ and sensei interesting. In Amoy Hokkien it is sien-si~. Are there other examples of Japanese losing a final -n or -ng?
A.
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Tang Loon Kong
Re: Penang Hokkien
Hi Ladies and Gentlemen,
Good Afternoon to all of you
What about kopi (coffee), kalau (if), wau (kites), wayang (show), tiam (quiet) and kuali? More conincidences?
I think, many 'scholars' today are researching the history of the Hokkiens through the colored glasses of the modern western dictionaries, many of which are most devoid of eastern cultural contents. And worse still, many are seeking accredition and confirmation from the west, because many are not able to find much written evidence from the east or are looking at the wrong places, using the wrong languages or having little institutionalised resources for financial support. Therefore using intermediaries such as Malay, Korean or Japanese written evidences whose resources are relatively more substantial can be useful in furthering their cause as good substiutes for 'missing' Hokkien missing written records.
From my understanding of Chinese history, much of the Hokkien records could have followed Hokkiens fleeing the Manchu invasion when the Ming empire fell. The last seat of the Ming (Southern) empire was in Fujian, and therefore, it is probable that fleeing Han Hokkiens would have taken much 'valuables' to nearby islands or other countries by ocean-going junks since the land routes were already blocked by the Manchus. Therefore, research about Hokkiens in China many not result in anything substantial (looking in China or post-Ming Chinese literature may not yield anything meaningful). However, research could be done by looking at the overseas Hokkiens communities, and there the communities and societies that support their existences, and subsequently their intractions. These records are not usually written, but are in the from of old languages and cultural practices. Thus, I think it is inconclusive to use the current Hokkien that is spoken in Fujian as a benchmark for the research.
It was also around that time, the Dutch came into the picture because they had controlled Taiwan for some time before being forced to surrender it to the Ming after losing to Koxinga (you will see his big statue in Gulang Yu in Xiamen), whose mother was a Japanese. This further suggests that Japan and Fujian must have had very close relationship for this to happen. And who knows what the Dutch brought back to Southeast Asia (Java and Melaka), Holland, and Europe from Fujian and Taiwan, and vice-versa? Remember, the Dutch and English (whose maritime empire was even larger than the Dutch) were also strong allies in fighting the French Napolean later on. Perhaps a 'mouse' then.
In other words, I am suggesting that language research requires at the very least triangualtion methods (the more the better). Without which, there will be high chances of indavertent ethnocentric prejudices and biasness. This is imperative and now possible because we are now living in a globalizing world where communications are expanded and enhanced.
When I was Tianjin (a major port city serving near Beijing), I visited a Temple devoted to a 'woman god', and I think it was the "Goddess of Mercy", and at the entrance, it was recorded to have been built by Hokkien craftsmen during the reign of the Mongolian Emperor Kublai Khan which was at least 700 years ago. This fact will certainly not appear if history were written solely by demogogues of other persuasions.
Firstly, I thought to myself, hmmm . . . Hokkiens so close to Beijing (the centre of the Mongolian power, and why were they alowed there?), and I also remembered that it was at this time the Mongols stretched their empire until the southern part of Russia. If then, had the Hokkiens followed or had visitors from these far flung regions who came to pay homage to the Great Khan, then the assertion that the widespreadness of the Hokkien langauge can be entertained. Secondly, I also remembered that Kublai Khan had sent fleets to Japan and Java or Sumatra, and during that time the major sea ports were in the south of China. What if the Hokkiens had 'tagged' along since they were already allowed to establish the temple (there may be other similar temples) so close to the Mongol power centre? Thirdly, there was the legendary Marco Polo, who supposedly came to China and went back with a lot of things. Well, who knows, what he took back to continental Europe - maybe they included a 'miau-chu' or mouse. These are not speculations. I would consider calling it "rewriting history with extremely cautious and informed optimism".
The fact that the plural of 'mouse' which is 'mice' cannot be used to debunk this possbile linkage of mouse coming from Hokkien dialect. If it were, that we are pointing to the direction as if "Japanese were the world's largest autombile manufactuers, then the automobile engine must have been a Japanese invention". This kind of logic cannot prevail in this context.
Tang Loon Kong
Shanghai, China
Good Afternoon to all of you
What about kopi (coffee), kalau (if), wau (kites), wayang (show), tiam (quiet) and kuali? More conincidences?
I think, many 'scholars' today are researching the history of the Hokkiens through the colored glasses of the modern western dictionaries, many of which are most devoid of eastern cultural contents. And worse still, many are seeking accredition and confirmation from the west, because many are not able to find much written evidence from the east or are looking at the wrong places, using the wrong languages or having little institutionalised resources for financial support. Therefore using intermediaries such as Malay, Korean or Japanese written evidences whose resources are relatively more substantial can be useful in furthering their cause as good substiutes for 'missing' Hokkien missing written records.
From my understanding of Chinese history, much of the Hokkien records could have followed Hokkiens fleeing the Manchu invasion when the Ming empire fell. The last seat of the Ming (Southern) empire was in Fujian, and therefore, it is probable that fleeing Han Hokkiens would have taken much 'valuables' to nearby islands or other countries by ocean-going junks since the land routes were already blocked by the Manchus. Therefore, research about Hokkiens in China many not result in anything substantial (looking in China or post-Ming Chinese literature may not yield anything meaningful). However, research could be done by looking at the overseas Hokkiens communities, and there the communities and societies that support their existences, and subsequently their intractions. These records are not usually written, but are in the from of old languages and cultural practices. Thus, I think it is inconclusive to use the current Hokkien that is spoken in Fujian as a benchmark for the research.
It was also around that time, the Dutch came into the picture because they had controlled Taiwan for some time before being forced to surrender it to the Ming after losing to Koxinga (you will see his big statue in Gulang Yu in Xiamen), whose mother was a Japanese. This further suggests that Japan and Fujian must have had very close relationship for this to happen. And who knows what the Dutch brought back to Southeast Asia (Java and Melaka), Holland, and Europe from Fujian and Taiwan, and vice-versa? Remember, the Dutch and English (whose maritime empire was even larger than the Dutch) were also strong allies in fighting the French Napolean later on. Perhaps a 'mouse' then.
In other words, I am suggesting that language research requires at the very least triangualtion methods (the more the better). Without which, there will be high chances of indavertent ethnocentric prejudices and biasness. This is imperative and now possible because we are now living in a globalizing world where communications are expanded and enhanced.
When I was Tianjin (a major port city serving near Beijing), I visited a Temple devoted to a 'woman god', and I think it was the "Goddess of Mercy", and at the entrance, it was recorded to have been built by Hokkien craftsmen during the reign of the Mongolian Emperor Kublai Khan which was at least 700 years ago. This fact will certainly not appear if history were written solely by demogogues of other persuasions.
Firstly, I thought to myself, hmmm . . . Hokkiens so close to Beijing (the centre of the Mongolian power, and why were they alowed there?), and I also remembered that it was at this time the Mongols stretched their empire until the southern part of Russia. If then, had the Hokkiens followed or had visitors from these far flung regions who came to pay homage to the Great Khan, then the assertion that the widespreadness of the Hokkien langauge can be entertained. Secondly, I also remembered that Kublai Khan had sent fleets to Japan and Java or Sumatra, and during that time the major sea ports were in the south of China. What if the Hokkiens had 'tagged' along since they were already allowed to establish the temple (there may be other similar temples) so close to the Mongol power centre? Thirdly, there was the legendary Marco Polo, who supposedly came to China and went back with a lot of things. Well, who knows, what he took back to continental Europe - maybe they included a 'miau-chu' or mouse. These are not speculations. I would consider calling it "rewriting history with extremely cautious and informed optimism".
The fact that the plural of 'mouse' which is 'mice' cannot be used to debunk this possbile linkage of mouse coming from Hokkien dialect. If it were, that we are pointing to the direction as if "Japanese were the world's largest autombile manufactuers, then the automobile engine must have been a Japanese invention". This kind of logic cannot prevail in this context.
Tang Loon Kong
Shanghai, China
-
hong
Re: Penang Hokkien
both diam -stay and quiet in malay are from minnan with corect hanzi in it. kopi also used by sri lankan ,etc.Wau seems like a thai word because the malay word should be layang-layang.
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Tang Loon Kong
Re: Penang Hokkien
Ladies and Gentlemen,
Lu Lang Chiak Pah Ah Boey, Chin Hnua Hee Ko Lai Cam Ka
Let me help ourselves on the word "ketchup" in English, and also "kichap" in Malay. Well, I think, it is wonderful that it has been acknowledged that it came from Hokkien. Then we have to ponder how much conufsion it had caused to detractors and well as supporters.
My intention here is not to add on more confusion, but perhaps lessen it.
From some viewpoints that we have seen in this forum, they have asserted that it is more of "kio-chap " which means fruit / gourd juice and therefore the seed of confusion. How to resolve this? Maybe the following can help explain.
Firstly, we are very familiar with the regular tomato sauce and overwhelmed by it, which the Hokkiens can 'ang-mo-kio chap' shortened to 'kio-chap' because this product came from the west. Hence, the "kio . . " sounds very seductively similar to "ket . . ". And therefore some would easily label it as an anomaly that jars the relationship between entities at both ends of the linakge.
Secondly, the English dictionary describes the 'ketchup' as coming from preserved fishsauce. Well, this tells us two important things. First is that tomatos are very different from fish, and second, the English man may have seen this preserved fish sauce which actually came from salt-water fish and salt, which suggest the observation may have taken place at the coastal area of southern China.
Thirdly, taking the first and second, we approach this dilemma and take a close look at the first syllable of 'ketchup' which is 'ket . . . " Could it mean something else other the fruit or gourd or tomato?
Finally, we can suggest that the first syllable of 'ketchup' which is 'ket . . ' does not represent any fruit or fish, but it could represent taste or texture. Relying on the fact that, it was preserved fish sauce that the Englishman saw, the taste or even texture cold have been thicker and stronger. Therefore it is high probable that the 'ket . . " (or "kit . . ") could mean thick or strong, and hence ketchup means strong or thick sauce rather than preserved fish sauce. Now we undertsnad the root of the confusion - the Englishmen were looking at the raw products, and the Hokkiens were talking about end products which should have thick texture and strong taste, and that should be where the first syllable came from.
Let talk some more.
Tang Loon Kong
Shanghai, China
Lu Lang Chiak Pah Ah Boey, Chin Hnua Hee Ko Lai Cam Ka
Let me help ourselves on the word "ketchup" in English, and also "kichap" in Malay. Well, I think, it is wonderful that it has been acknowledged that it came from Hokkien. Then we have to ponder how much conufsion it had caused to detractors and well as supporters.
My intention here is not to add on more confusion, but perhaps lessen it.
From some viewpoints that we have seen in this forum, they have asserted that it is more of "kio-chap " which means fruit / gourd juice and therefore the seed of confusion. How to resolve this? Maybe the following can help explain.
Firstly, we are very familiar with the regular tomato sauce and overwhelmed by it, which the Hokkiens can 'ang-mo-kio chap' shortened to 'kio-chap' because this product came from the west. Hence, the "kio . . " sounds very seductively similar to "ket . . ". And therefore some would easily label it as an anomaly that jars the relationship between entities at both ends of the linakge.
Secondly, the English dictionary describes the 'ketchup' as coming from preserved fishsauce. Well, this tells us two important things. First is that tomatos are very different from fish, and second, the English man may have seen this preserved fish sauce which actually came from salt-water fish and salt, which suggest the observation may have taken place at the coastal area of southern China.
Thirdly, taking the first and second, we approach this dilemma and take a close look at the first syllable of 'ketchup' which is 'ket . . . " Could it mean something else other the fruit or gourd or tomato?
Finally, we can suggest that the first syllable of 'ketchup' which is 'ket . . ' does not represent any fruit or fish, but it could represent taste or texture. Relying on the fact that, it was preserved fish sauce that the Englishman saw, the taste or even texture cold have been thicker and stronger. Therefore it is high probable that the 'ket . . " (or "kit . . ") could mean thick or strong, and hence ketchup means strong or thick sauce rather than preserved fish sauce. Now we undertsnad the root of the confusion - the Englishmen were looking at the raw products, and the Hokkiens were talking about end products which should have thick texture and strong taste, and that should be where the first syllable came from.
Let talk some more.
Tang Loon Kong
Shanghai, China