You are the one who didn't read my post carefully..I did say the standard minnan will not be the same for everyone.For me is nan an and for you is xinhua.Most penang minnan people are nan an ,jinjiang ,huian and anxi.So they should first start with each fangyanzhi books from china follow by books which have other sects as well like campbell.What is a potonghua and oxford dict mean to a guy who refuse to study proper english and putonghua.This is the case for minnan too.Since they won't care anything written in the dict,any learning material from China and Taiwan will be a waste for them.
I don't think I will waste any time with you.I hope you do have proper xinhua dict and grammar books to study carefully.
Penang Hokkien
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Eng Wai
Re: Penang Hokkien - classifiers
Cool, another swift but short reply.
"You are the one who didn't read my post carefully..I did say the standard minnan will not be the same for everyone.For me is nan an and for you is xinhua.Most penang minnan people are nan an ,jinjiang ,huian and anxi.So they should first start with each fangyanzhi books from china follow by books which have other sects as well like camp"
Sorry, I didn't see any of post replying me saying anything about this! So do you mean Nan An Hokkien should speak proper Nan An, Jin Jiang Hokkien shold speak proper Jin Jiang so on and so on. Then, how can all of us have same and proper Min Nan education? And how about Penang Hokkien?
Does it not deserve the status like Nan An, Xing Hua as a Hokkien denomination?? What is your judgement on which Hokkien denomiantion as a proper hokkien denomination, which is not!!
"What is a potonghua and oxford dict mean to a guy who refuse to study proper english and putonghua."
Proper English and Pu Tong Hua are the official dialect of respective languages chosen to serve as Proper Language. The language is standardised by professional linguist to present to the wide populace. Which one is the chosen Proper Minnan?
"I don't think I will waste any time with you.I hope you do have proper xinhua dict and grammar books to study carefully."
If you refuse to continue to talk about this issue, that's up to you. Let the others read and judge what we wrote. I don't have a proper Xin Hua dictionary and grammar book, but I do hope to learn more about the general Min Nan vocab n grammar. And I want to let Penang Hokkien to develope naturally, as it was, it is, and it will be doing.
And I will contribute to promote Penang Hokkien as a Hokkien sect, no shame to it, no embarassment to it, but pride and historical inevitability.
And I don't know if you know that, Penang Hokkien is different from Baba, and Baba is a nearly(probably) extinct language. Baba is a creole made up of Hokkien n Malay. But Penang Hokkien is the "standard" and general Hokkien spoken by Penangite. It is a mix of different Hokkien, mainly Zhang Zhou, and it is not a creole. It is a hundred percent Chinese language.
[%sig%]
"You are the one who didn't read my post carefully..I did say the standard minnan will not be the same for everyone.For me is nan an and for you is xinhua.Most penang minnan people are nan an ,jinjiang ,huian and anxi.So they should first start with each fangyanzhi books from china follow by books which have other sects as well like camp"
Sorry, I didn't see any of post replying me saying anything about this! So do you mean Nan An Hokkien should speak proper Nan An, Jin Jiang Hokkien shold speak proper Jin Jiang so on and so on. Then, how can all of us have same and proper Min Nan education? And how about Penang Hokkien?
Does it not deserve the status like Nan An, Xing Hua as a Hokkien denomination?? What is your judgement on which Hokkien denomiantion as a proper hokkien denomination, which is not!!
"What is a potonghua and oxford dict mean to a guy who refuse to study proper english and putonghua."
Proper English and Pu Tong Hua are the official dialect of respective languages chosen to serve as Proper Language. The language is standardised by professional linguist to present to the wide populace. Which one is the chosen Proper Minnan?
"I don't think I will waste any time with you.I hope you do have proper xinhua dict and grammar books to study carefully."
If you refuse to continue to talk about this issue, that's up to you. Let the others read and judge what we wrote. I don't have a proper Xin Hua dictionary and grammar book, but I do hope to learn more about the general Min Nan vocab n grammar. And I want to let Penang Hokkien to develope naturally, as it was, it is, and it will be doing.
And I will contribute to promote Penang Hokkien as a Hokkien sect, no shame to it, no embarassment to it, but pride and historical inevitability.
And I don't know if you know that, Penang Hokkien is different from Baba, and Baba is a nearly(probably) extinct language. Baba is a creole made up of Hokkien n Malay. But Penang Hokkien is the "standard" and general Hokkien spoken by Penangite. It is a mix of different Hokkien, mainly Zhang Zhou, and it is not a creole. It is a hundred percent Chinese language.
[%sig%]
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hong
Re: Penang Hokkien
The answer is so simple.We have each association in penang and whole malaysia.So each association should find a way to educate their members.Some associations are doing this by giving away hakka cidian as far as i know .Minnan yongchun huiguan will give away yongchunfangyanzhi ,etc.Is that too much too ask?Without doing this ,each association has no distinct indentity anymore.
One is called a xinhua people not by his cloth /food but more about his language,etc.Send your money to buy proper xinhua language books before you start talking about creating your own style.
I can't see what can you teach people about penang hokkien?They are mostly chuanchiu,but you teach them chiangchiu sound mix with malay/english-no logic at all!Many young minnan people in Penang are joining jinjiang,nan an association.I am sure one day they will ask am I speaking the nanan minnan or what.I haven't met a penang minnan who are not interested to learn some words in correct minnan.
One is called a xinhua people not by his cloth /food but more about his language,etc.Send your money to buy proper xinhua language books before you start talking about creating your own style.
I can't see what can you teach people about penang hokkien?They are mostly chuanchiu,but you teach them chiangchiu sound mix with malay/english-no logic at all!Many young minnan people in Penang are joining jinjiang,nan an association.I am sure one day they will ask am I speaking the nanan minnan or what.I haven't met a penang minnan who are not interested to learn some words in correct minnan.
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Eng Wai
Re: Penang Hokkien - classifiers
Ha ha ha
"The answer is so simple.We have each association in penang and whole malaysia.So each association should find a way to educate their members.Some associations are doing this by giving away hakka cidian as far as i know .Minnan yongchun huiguan will give away yongchunfangyanzhi ,etc.Is that too much too ask?"
Cool, if you think it is easy, accessible and necessary, you can start with yourself. So at the end the Hokkien in Penang will no longer speak Penang Hokkien, but Xinhua Hokkien, ChiangChu Hokkien, Nan An Hokkien as if we are people living in such places.
"Without doing this ,each association has no distinct indentity anymore."
These associations are distinct to each other because of the location of origin. Should we establish associations which are more specific, ie of Village, Road or even House? Following the establishment of Penang Hokkien among the Penangite, and the integration of Penang Hokkienese into Penang, these associations are not necessary in comformity anymore with their original purposes, that is to help the specific origin people, but rather changing their scope to bigger one, that is to unite the Hokkien people in Penang and preserve the culture.
"One is called a xinhua people not by his cloth /food but more about his language,etc.Send your money to buy proper xinhua language books before you start talking about creating your own style."
When Do I start talking about my own Xin Hua style?
"I can't see what can you teach people about penang hokkien?They are mostly chuanchiu,but you teach them chiangchiu sound mix with malay/english-no logic at all!"
Do I ever say I want to teach people about Penang Hokkien? I say let it develope naturally. And you are the one saying you can tolerate Hokkien with 10% Malay words. How ironic you type this sentence !!!
"Many young minnan people in Penang are joining jinjiang,nan an association.I am sure one day they will ask am I speaking the nanan minnan or what.I haven't met a penang minnan who are not interested to learn some words in correct minnan."
Are you from Penang first? Those who are interested in learning "correct" Min Nan, do it because they thought that there is a correct Min Nan, and they are socially constructed to thinking Penang Hokkien is a "wrong" Min Nan.
In contrast, I have quite a couple of experiences of Penang Hokkien laughing at Kelantan Hokkien or Sarawakian Hokkien for speaking Hokkien with different accent (from Penang/Chiang Chiu). They are not malicious for certain, they are just having fun on different Hokkien accent. But if the Penangite as what you described, overwhelmingly not happy with Penang Hokkien, they won't make jokes with the tohers at the first place!
I am interested in knowing and learning more about the original accent of Hokkien, this doen't mean I want to abolish my Penang Hokkien.
From your words, I guess you are getting more agitated already.
Eng Wai
"The answer is so simple.We have each association in penang and whole malaysia.So each association should find a way to educate their members.Some associations are doing this by giving away hakka cidian as far as i know .Minnan yongchun huiguan will give away yongchunfangyanzhi ,etc.Is that too much too ask?"
Cool, if you think it is easy, accessible and necessary, you can start with yourself. So at the end the Hokkien in Penang will no longer speak Penang Hokkien, but Xinhua Hokkien, ChiangChu Hokkien, Nan An Hokkien as if we are people living in such places.
"Without doing this ,each association has no distinct indentity anymore."
These associations are distinct to each other because of the location of origin. Should we establish associations which are more specific, ie of Village, Road or even House? Following the establishment of Penang Hokkien among the Penangite, and the integration of Penang Hokkienese into Penang, these associations are not necessary in comformity anymore with their original purposes, that is to help the specific origin people, but rather changing their scope to bigger one, that is to unite the Hokkien people in Penang and preserve the culture.
"One is called a xinhua people not by his cloth /food but more about his language,etc.Send your money to buy proper xinhua language books before you start talking about creating your own style."
When Do I start talking about my own Xin Hua style?
"I can't see what can you teach people about penang hokkien?They are mostly chuanchiu,but you teach them chiangchiu sound mix with malay/english-no logic at all!"
Do I ever say I want to teach people about Penang Hokkien? I say let it develope naturally. And you are the one saying you can tolerate Hokkien with 10% Malay words. How ironic you type this sentence !!!
"Many young minnan people in Penang are joining jinjiang,nan an association.I am sure one day they will ask am I speaking the nanan minnan or what.I haven't met a penang minnan who are not interested to learn some words in correct minnan."
Are you from Penang first? Those who are interested in learning "correct" Min Nan, do it because they thought that there is a correct Min Nan, and they are socially constructed to thinking Penang Hokkien is a "wrong" Min Nan.
In contrast, I have quite a couple of experiences of Penang Hokkien laughing at Kelantan Hokkien or Sarawakian Hokkien for speaking Hokkien with different accent (from Penang/Chiang Chiu). They are not malicious for certain, they are just having fun on different Hokkien accent. But if the Penangite as what you described, overwhelmingly not happy with Penang Hokkien, they won't make jokes with the tohers at the first place!
I am interested in knowing and learning more about the original accent of Hokkien, this doen't mean I want to abolish my Penang Hokkien.
From your words, I guess you are getting more agitated already.
Eng Wai
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hong
Re: Penang Hokkien
I am not even bother to feel agitated about your view.If minnan people in Penang (the minnan population there are not very big anyway))are wrong to speak individual style of minnan .Then they are also wrong to go to school learning the china's text book way to speak putonghua.If you are promoting penang minnan ,how the hell it has nothing to do with teaching other people penang minnan in a class.or in a book.
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Eng Wai
Re: Penang Hokkien - classifiers
"If minnan people in Penang (the minnan population there are not very big anyway))are wrong to speak individual style of minnan .Then they are also wrong to go to school learning the china's text book way to speak putonghua."
I never say it is wrong to speak individual style of Hokkien. Aren't you the one promoting standard Minnan and demeaning Penang style Hokkien?
"If you are promoting penang minnan ,how the hell it has nothing to do with teaching other people penang minnan in a class.or in a book."
If "I am not even bother to feel agitated about your view", why you are swearing in a discussion forum? I propose to letting Penang Hokkien develope naturally, instead of reverse the gear and learn "correct" Min Nan as suggested by you. By teaching people how to speak correct Penang Hokkien is to regulate Penang Hokkien manually, which is contradictory to what I expressed.
Eng Wai
I never say it is wrong to speak individual style of Hokkien. Aren't you the one promoting standard Minnan and demeaning Penang style Hokkien?
"If you are promoting penang minnan ,how the hell it has nothing to do with teaching other people penang minnan in a class.or in a book."
If "I am not even bother to feel agitated about your view", why you are swearing in a discussion forum? I propose to letting Penang Hokkien develope naturally, instead of reverse the gear and learn "correct" Min Nan as suggested by you. By teaching people how to speak correct Penang Hokkien is to regulate Penang Hokkien manually, which is contradictory to what I expressed.
Eng Wai
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hong
Re: Penang Hokkien
No,I don't think there are such thing as minnna develope naturally because young people are giving up minnan follow family in south malaysia.Whole family only speak mandarin(very poor standard anyway).So the minnan will die away after a century if no proper education in dict form around .
The most important thing is how do you define Penang hokkien.There are some say png for rice but some say pui.etc.There are so many sounds follow each individual.My uncle never say pasat in his entire life but only use minnan word for market but some just saying pasat everyday in Penang.Some say an ne ,some say an ni although they don't have a dict to read.
The most important thing is how do you define Penang hokkien.There are some say png for rice but some say pui.etc.There are so many sounds follow each individual.My uncle never say pasat in his entire life but only use minnan word for market but some just saying pasat everyday in Penang.Some say an ne ,some say an ni although they don't have a dict to read.
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hong
Re: Penang Hokkien
Another thing is about I say 10% malay in nouns.We have to use malay or any other local south east asian words for things do not exist in China.We have to say laksa,cendol and belacan.If we take into account 7.5 m minnan south east asia,there could be 1000 words for food where we have to use thai,myanmar.etc.
However I have said we don't need extra malay particle ,adverb,verbs and adjective because there are plenty of them until only expert can remember them all.We are talking about 5000 minnan proverb too for us to learn.
However I have said we don't need extra malay particle ,adverb,verbs and adjective because there are plenty of them until only expert can remember them all.We are talking about 5000 minnan proverb too for us to learn.
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Andrew Yong
Re: Penang Hokkien
Each person learning his own native form of Minnan is pretty ridiculous. Penang Hokkien is a living language that is used in everyday communication. How difficult would it be to have everyone talking in different dialects! The end result would not be that everyone spoke pure dialects, but that the language would become mixed up and even more chaotic.
Obviously no-one can control a living language. However, it is a worthwhile aim trying to expand people's vocabulary, and try to educate them about the written Hokkien language. Without a written language, the spoken language has no secure anchor, and cannot prosper. The basis of this, as far as Penang Hokkien is concerned, must be Zhangzhou Hokkien. Other dialects are far too different, and to many people not intelligible. It does not matter if Penang Hokkien is not understood by Singaporeans or Taiwanese, as long as can be used and understood by Penangites to communicate any form of idea.
The aim must be to establish a spoken and written standard so that people can study and develop the language. It is equally not satisfactory for the spoken language to flail along hopelessly like it has done, while fewer and fewer people can express themselves well in the language, and we end up with people abandoning Hokkien every time they need to express a complicated thought.
Obviously no-one can control a living language. However, it is a worthwhile aim trying to expand people's vocabulary, and try to educate them about the written Hokkien language. Without a written language, the spoken language has no secure anchor, and cannot prosper. The basis of this, as far as Penang Hokkien is concerned, must be Zhangzhou Hokkien. Other dialects are far too different, and to many people not intelligible. It does not matter if Penang Hokkien is not understood by Singaporeans or Taiwanese, as long as can be used and understood by Penangites to communicate any form of idea.
The aim must be to establish a spoken and written standard so that people can study and develop the language. It is equally not satisfactory for the spoken language to flail along hopelessly like it has done, while fewer and fewer people can express themselves well in the language, and we end up with people abandoning Hokkien every time they need to express a complicated thought.
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hong
Re: Penang Hokkien
Dear Andrew,
I think it will be difficult too if you want Penang people to learn proper chiangchiu minnan.The words from changdai and zhangbu(the standard in qing period minnna dict) will look totally strange to them .If you want penang to say it,you are sending them to hell.Also if you want them to learn proper chuanchiu ,it will just too hard as well.My idea is everyone should have a copy of his own sect dict although he might not be saying it,at least he has the knowledge of it.
I think it will be difficult too if you want Penang people to learn proper chiangchiu minnan.The words from changdai and zhangbu(the standard in qing period minnna dict) will look totally strange to them .If you want penang to say it,you are sending them to hell.Also if you want them to learn proper chuanchiu ,it will just too hard as well.My idea is everyone should have a copy of his own sect dict although he might not be saying it,at least he has the knowledge of it.