Dear Andrew,
You said one shouldn't learn own sect of minnan but why you said penang hokkien should learn chiangchiu sect.It is a little bit contradiction of your view.There are no less than 500 adjectives(one to three zi of words) in chiangchiu completely couldn't understood by anyone in Malaysia.
I don't want to say it again how much the chuanchiu people in North Malaysia should learn chuanchiu sects.Chuanchiu have to learn to speak chiangchiu but not any kind of chuanchiu seem crazy for me. But a hakka like you have every right to learn and speak any kind of minnan you like.
Penang Hokkien
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hong
Re: Penang Hokkien
Andrew,I must add that if you are a dabu hakka but I ask you to study mexian hakka only which is the largest in malaysia.Is that fair?
So please don't ask other dialect groups to study the main sect within it.I don't think any chuanchiu hokkien huikuan in Penang if there do have minnan class will be in chiangchiu.
So please don't ask other dialect groups to study the main sect within it.I don't think any chuanchiu hokkien huikuan in Penang if there do have minnan class will be in chiangchiu.
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Andrew Yong
Re: Penang Hokkien
People can study whatever they like. But if you want Hokkien to be a subject which can have be used for broadcasting, exams, etc., then you have to have a standard. If it were for the whole of Malaysia and Singapore, then clearly Emng would be the proper standard. But if you are talking about a standard for Penang, then it is silly making people learn another dialect from scratch. Of course they should be able to understand Emng/Taiwan Hokkien, but we have a living language in Penang, so why not preserve it? If you teach another dialect, it will all end up getting mixed up with Penang Hokkien, and you will get rojak.
If you are Henghua or Fuchow but live in Penang, you cannot just learn Henghua or Fuchow, you have to be able to understand and speak Penang Hokkien also. For me, I am Tsensang Hakka, but when I learn Hakka I learn the most common form spoken in Malaysia.
As for Chiangchiu Hokkien being more difficult, how can it be more difficult than Emng or Chuanchiu? It is only more difficult if you aren't used to it.
If you are Henghua or Fuchow but live in Penang, you cannot just learn Henghua or Fuchow, you have to be able to understand and speak Penang Hokkien also. For me, I am Tsensang Hakka, but when I learn Hakka I learn the most common form spoken in Malaysia.
As for Chiangchiu Hokkien being more difficult, how can it be more difficult than Emng or Chuanchiu? It is only more difficult if you aren't used to it.
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hong
Re: Penang Hokkien
Dear Andrew,
I think you must understand that asking Penang minnan to learn chiangchiu -2 major sect-one sea(longhai) and mountain will be not be as easy as you think.I have only 100 pages of Schlegel chiangchiu dict and find it those words will take very long time for penang minnna to adopt it.
No,in taiwan they have different kind of exam/text books for minnan .yilan will write romaji in chiangchiu but lugang will be in chuanchiu.I think you haven't read my links about this.
Penang chuanchiu people because of lacking of dict around in last 100 years were misled by others to speak chiangchiu sound.I have corrected as many as I could start with png for pui,etc.I think they are willing to change .I haven't met any Penang born minnan who are attached to the chiangchiu sound after they learn about the chuanchiu sound.I even corrected my manager surname from uinng to Ng,he happily accepted it.With internet around,it will be easier in the future to learn minnan if the guys don't want to spend any money on it but just downloading free stuff online.
I think you must understand that asking Penang minnan to learn chiangchiu -2 major sect-one sea(longhai) and mountain will be not be as easy as you think.I have only 100 pages of Schlegel chiangchiu dict and find it those words will take very long time for penang minnna to adopt it.
No,in taiwan they have different kind of exam/text books for minnan .yilan will write romaji in chiangchiu but lugang will be in chuanchiu.I think you haven't read my links about this.
Penang chuanchiu people because of lacking of dict around in last 100 years were misled by others to speak chiangchiu sound.I have corrected as many as I could start with png for pui,etc.I think they are willing to change .I haven't met any Penang born minnan who are attached to the chiangchiu sound after they learn about the chuanchiu sound.I even corrected my manager surname from uinng to Ng,he happily accepted it.With internet around,it will be easier in the future to learn minnan if the guys don't want to spend any money on it but just downloading free stuff online.
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hong
Re: Penang Hokkien
I think since andrew and engwai are not minnan ,they should let local penang minnan people decide what to learn about minnan.It is perfectly normal for a huian to find huian fangyanzhi to learn ,etc.I don't think anyone has the rights to ask penang minnan to learn chiangchiu language only.
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Andrew Yong
Re: Penang Hokkien
As I have said, people can learn whatever they want. But those people you have corrected to say png instead of puiN, have you also "corrected" them to say hoe instead of hoa, siEn-si instead of sin-sE, be instead of boe, boe instead of be, be instead of moai, etc. and have you taught them how to pronounce the Yinqu and Yangqu tones in the Emng or Chuanchiu manner?
If not then you have created rojak.
If not then you have created rojak.
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hong
Re: Penang Hokkien
Yes,I have taught them step by step.I cannot ask them to change in one day from kong to seh in one day,from la to lia (sentence final)as soon as I told them.
Is that so hard to say be for moai?Most them already heard of those sounds from their grandparents even before I taught them.I cannot understand for you to think that Penang minnan never herad of chuanchiu sounds.They are countless penang chuanchiu minnan saying png for rice.I really don't understand what kind of penang hokkien you have made.I spent 4 years in Penang Island(university studies) and heard so many older people saying mng for door.
I cannot see various chunchiu speaking each sect is a sign of no unity .Penang minnan should speak mandarin or english to other dialect groups .It is fair of them .
Anyway I cannot see in Penang Island minnan poeple are more than 50 %.There are so many hakka and cantonese.More huikuan sects in these groups than only one chiangchiu huikuan.So why so attach for a kind of penang minnan language.
Is that so hard to say be for moai?Most them already heard of those sounds from their grandparents even before I taught them.I cannot understand for you to think that Penang minnan never herad of chuanchiu sounds.They are countless penang chuanchiu minnan saying png for rice.I really don't understand what kind of penang hokkien you have made.I spent 4 years in Penang Island(university studies) and heard so many older people saying mng for door.
I cannot see various chunchiu speaking each sect is a sign of no unity .Penang minnan should speak mandarin or english to other dialect groups .It is fair of them .
Anyway I cannot see in Penang Island minnan poeple are more than 50 %.There are so many hakka and cantonese.More huikuan sects in these groups than only one chiangchiu huikuan.So why so attach for a kind of penang minnan language.
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hong
Re: Penang Hokkien
Dear Andrew,above I should type have met not made.I find that in online dict 平价 means same price not cheap price as I said a few months ago.Putonghua and minnan for this word is not the same .
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Eng Wai
Re: Penang Hokkien - classifiers
A Hong,
I have not been using internet for the weekend. Now I am back!
Hong, I am pretty surprised to see you uttering this sentence.
"I think since andrew and engwai are not minnan, they should let local penang minnan people decide what to learn about minnan."
&
"I really don't understand what kind of penang hokkien you have made.I spent 4 years in Penang Island(university studies) and heard so many older people saying mng for door. "
It is either you have your own definition of Min Nan, or we have severe communication problems. I have said I am a Hokkien, a Xing Hua Hokkien more presicely. If I am not a Local Penang Minnan, then maybe only my late grand pa deserves the term, and no one in Penang deserves it. According to your logic, you should have no qualification to talk about Penang Hokkien because you are not a Penangite! Me and Andrew are not deciding anything on behalf of other Penangite, but simply expressing our views and decide for ourselves. Of course everyone is free to comment on everything, as long as he is sincere and has no malicous intention. Penang people will decide themselve whatever they want, and they will hear anything benefitial to them. I guess our ancestors and the Penangite have voted and decided through our mouth, that is to continue our daily discourse in Penang Hokkien. By your standard, prehaps you shuold stop saying anything more in this forum???
I find it really hard to understand you. I don't know where are your stands and what are your true opinions.
You posted some Taiwanese language websites in the other forum thread I raised. I don't know by your understanding, how could you agree with the term Tai2 Yu3. If you know the history of Taiwan, no doubt you should know that majority Taiwanese are the descendants of vastly different Chinese people. To call the general Hokkien spoken by general Taiwanese Tai Yu is not only an enormous insult to Taiwanese indigenous, a big disrespect to those of Hakka origin, it is a show of naivety for those proper Hokkien too, since they can't even call it by proper name. I don't know by your approach to Penang Hokkien, how could you commit to preservation and promoting of Tai Yu!
When you are correcting Penangite's Hokkien, do you ever think that how many accents of Hokkien can you speak? What kind of Hokkien the Penangite are actually? Many people know only they are Hokkien, unsure about which group of Hokkien they belong to. Unless you can speak every Hokkien accent and be sure about everyone origin, which you can never, you should not teach them any proper Hokkien because you are polluting their tongue.
I really find it hard to follow your comments. Perhaps I am not too patient to verify everything with you by different posts on the forum. Above are just few examples that i can't comprehend.
Or maybe it is the nature of internet forum?? Time to cease my postings and concentrate more on my proper job!
Eng Wai
[%sig%]
I have not been using internet for the weekend. Now I am back!
Hong, I am pretty surprised to see you uttering this sentence.
"I think since andrew and engwai are not minnan, they should let local penang minnan people decide what to learn about minnan."
&
"I really don't understand what kind of penang hokkien you have made.I spent 4 years in Penang Island(university studies) and heard so many older people saying mng for door. "
It is either you have your own definition of Min Nan, or we have severe communication problems. I have said I am a Hokkien, a Xing Hua Hokkien more presicely. If I am not a Local Penang Minnan, then maybe only my late grand pa deserves the term, and no one in Penang deserves it. According to your logic, you should have no qualification to talk about Penang Hokkien because you are not a Penangite! Me and Andrew are not deciding anything on behalf of other Penangite, but simply expressing our views and decide for ourselves. Of course everyone is free to comment on everything, as long as he is sincere and has no malicous intention. Penang people will decide themselve whatever they want, and they will hear anything benefitial to them. I guess our ancestors and the Penangite have voted and decided through our mouth, that is to continue our daily discourse in Penang Hokkien. By your standard, prehaps you shuold stop saying anything more in this forum???
I find it really hard to understand you. I don't know where are your stands and what are your true opinions.
You posted some Taiwanese language websites in the other forum thread I raised. I don't know by your understanding, how could you agree with the term Tai2 Yu3. If you know the history of Taiwan, no doubt you should know that majority Taiwanese are the descendants of vastly different Chinese people. To call the general Hokkien spoken by general Taiwanese Tai Yu is not only an enormous insult to Taiwanese indigenous, a big disrespect to those of Hakka origin, it is a show of naivety for those proper Hokkien too, since they can't even call it by proper name. I don't know by your approach to Penang Hokkien, how could you commit to preservation and promoting of Tai Yu!
When you are correcting Penangite's Hokkien, do you ever think that how many accents of Hokkien can you speak? What kind of Hokkien the Penangite are actually? Many people know only they are Hokkien, unsure about which group of Hokkien they belong to. Unless you can speak every Hokkien accent and be sure about everyone origin, which you can never, you should not teach them any proper Hokkien because you are polluting their tongue.
I really find it hard to follow your comments. Perhaps I am not too patient to verify everything with you by different posts on the forum. Above are just few examples that i can't comprehend.
Or maybe it is the nature of internet forum?? Time to cease my postings and concentrate more on my proper job!
Eng Wai
[%sig%]
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Eng Wai
Re: Penang Hokkien
Andrew Yong
"Penang Hokkien is a living language that is used in everyday communication..........
Obviously no-one can control a living language. However, it is a worthwhile aim trying to expand people's vocabulary, and try to educate them about the written Hokkien language. Without a written language, the spoken language has no secure anchor, and cannot prosper. The basis of this, as far as Penang Hokkien is concerned, must be Zhangzhou Hokkien. Other dialects are far too different, and to many people not intelligible. It does not matter if Penang Hokkien is not understood by Singaporeans or Taiwanese, as long as can be used and understood by Penangites to communicate any form of idea.
The aim must be to establish a spoken and written standard so that people can study and develop the language. It is equally not satisfactory for the spoken language to flail along hopelessly like it has done, while fewer and fewer people can express themselves well in the language, and we end up with people abandoning Hokkien every time they need to express a complicated thought."
Hi Andrew, maybe you should use the term "colloqual language" instead of "living language". Every language still being used is a living language, Malay, Chinese, English etc. Penang Hokkien is a bit unique because it is a colloqual language/dialect/accent with no written language supporting it. It is unique because of this, and it get its charectereisitcs and flexibilities because of this. So if you were to standardise it and establish a written language for it, what you preserve is simply the current Penang Hokkien spoken by the Penang Hokkienese. This will add weight to our already cumbersome cultural burdens, and it doesn't help to preserve the trait of the language.
Instead, to preserve this precious heritage, we should start not to demean or downgrade Penang Hokkien, to respect it and to live with it. There is nothing Penang Hokkien shouldn't deserve any respect as other tongues, eg the mainland Min Nan or Kelantan Malay.
Academics should document and research on the evolution of Penang Hokkien. So we will know more about the history and developement of Penangite. By this, Penang Hokkien will be rightly preserved on no cost of anyone, except those academics, of course.
Eng Wai
"Penang Hokkien is a living language that is used in everyday communication..........
Obviously no-one can control a living language. However, it is a worthwhile aim trying to expand people's vocabulary, and try to educate them about the written Hokkien language. Without a written language, the spoken language has no secure anchor, and cannot prosper. The basis of this, as far as Penang Hokkien is concerned, must be Zhangzhou Hokkien. Other dialects are far too different, and to many people not intelligible. It does not matter if Penang Hokkien is not understood by Singaporeans or Taiwanese, as long as can be used and understood by Penangites to communicate any form of idea.
The aim must be to establish a spoken and written standard so that people can study and develop the language. It is equally not satisfactory for the spoken language to flail along hopelessly like it has done, while fewer and fewer people can express themselves well in the language, and we end up with people abandoning Hokkien every time they need to express a complicated thought."
Hi Andrew, maybe you should use the term "colloqual language" instead of "living language". Every language still being used is a living language, Malay, Chinese, English etc. Penang Hokkien is a bit unique because it is a colloqual language/dialect/accent with no written language supporting it. It is unique because of this, and it get its charectereisitcs and flexibilities because of this. So if you were to standardise it and establish a written language for it, what you preserve is simply the current Penang Hokkien spoken by the Penang Hokkienese. This will add weight to our already cumbersome cultural burdens, and it doesn't help to preserve the trait of the language.
Instead, to preserve this precious heritage, we should start not to demean or downgrade Penang Hokkien, to respect it and to live with it. There is nothing Penang Hokkien shouldn't deserve any respect as other tongues, eg the mainland Min Nan or Kelantan Malay.
Academics should document and research on the evolution of Penang Hokkien. So we will know more about the history and developement of Penangite. By this, Penang Hokkien will be rightly preserved on no cost of anyone, except those academics, of course.
Eng Wai