Where did I say hakkan is not Taiyu .I posted links about taiwanese web sites are for us to learn about minnan without saying anything bad about hakka.Hakka and all other dialects like wu and aboroginal languages in Taiwan are Tai Yu.How the hell I can put links about hakka and wu in here .I will like to put fuzhou and putian but nobody make web sites for it.Are you aware what kind of forum you are in? Even a kid can read this forum is for min languages but not hakka,etc.I think anyone who said this is totally unreasonable.
I never taught any Penang about minnan but it was they who asked for it.I check the dict then told them what I have read.
Penang Hokkien
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Andrew Yong
Re: Penang Hokkien
Eng Wai:
The reason many people have no respect for Penang Hokkien is because they do not understand that it is based on another dialect of Hokkien, i.e. the Chiangchiu variety. Once people know that they stop talking about 'right' and 'wrong' Hokkien丏
However, it is clearly unsatisfactory that we have no written language. You might think that this is flexible, but it means that the standard of most Penangites' Hokkien deteriorates with each generation. How do you expect people to have a vocabulary detailed enough to carry out moderately complex conversations if they do not have any education in the language? Most of the people I know constantly use English, Malay, Mandarin, Cantonese, etc. words to express simple concepts.
I have no intention to get rid of Penang words like ha"-mih instead of sia"-mi/sa"-mih, or to freeze the language, but to nudge it in another direction. People are capable of talking in different registers - e.g. you use different words when you talk to a child than you do when making a formal speech to older people, so they should be able of carrying out formal conversation as well as colloquial speech. A language can be made richer as a result. The alternative is descending from a patois into a creole, which is a mixture of different languages and completely unintelligible from the original language.
This means we should have a language that can be written in hanzi as well as romanisation, and we should use Chinese words in formal speech where possible. Of course in everyday language we will still say batu, loti, etc., but we should also have a formal register.
The reason many people have no respect for Penang Hokkien is because they do not understand that it is based on another dialect of Hokkien, i.e. the Chiangchiu variety. Once people know that they stop talking about 'right' and 'wrong' Hokkien丏
However, it is clearly unsatisfactory that we have no written language. You might think that this is flexible, but it means that the standard of most Penangites' Hokkien deteriorates with each generation. How do you expect people to have a vocabulary detailed enough to carry out moderately complex conversations if they do not have any education in the language? Most of the people I know constantly use English, Malay, Mandarin, Cantonese, etc. words to express simple concepts.
I have no intention to get rid of Penang words like ha"-mih instead of sia"-mi/sa"-mih, or to freeze the language, but to nudge it in another direction. People are capable of talking in different registers - e.g. you use different words when you talk to a child than you do when making a formal speech to older people, so they should be able of carrying out formal conversation as well as colloquial speech. A language can be made richer as a result. The alternative is descending from a patois into a creole, which is a mixture of different languages and completely unintelligible from the original language.
This means we should have a language that can be written in hanzi as well as romanisation, and we should use Chinese words in formal speech where possible. Of course in everyday language we will still say batu, loti, etc., but we should also have a formal register.
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hong
Re: Penang Hokkien
I think I know where the word hami came from.It is from the minnan word for hebi 何必=a sai and a tioh.So people misused it for a mi than become hami. A sai and a tioh are used by every minnan I knew but nobody knows the actual putonghua meaning for it.
Most say A tioh bian====not necessary.,why must it be so.
I am not sure kongsi can be used as a verb but I think taiwan only used thoa摊 and hun thoa like putonghua zi for share in verb.
Most say A tioh bian====not necessary.,why must it be so.
I am not sure kongsi can be used as a verb but I think taiwan only used thoa摊 and hun thoa like putonghua zi for share in verb.
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hong
Re: Penang Hokkien
I should add people say a tioh si mi e ani.....contracted to a mi e ani ....become hami.....gradually without dict help .no one knows it is wrong.Just like there are 4 nouns in minnan for loanshark but people have no idea but only use daiyilong or a long from hongkong cantonese.How sad it is!.
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Eng Wai
Re: Penang Hokkien
Andrew
First, is the issue of respect is your main concern regarding Penang Hokkien? If it is, we could easily resume the dignity of Penang Hokkien through advocation, not necessary via proper Penang Hokkien education which will add much burden to everyone.
The preservation of the language is more important. It should be preserved because it is the reflect of our idendity and local and current social environment. If we let it untouched, Penang Hokkien will evolved in accordance to the demand of Penangite. It is already happening now, eg more Mandarin and English words being incorporated into Penang Hokkien that reflects the rising of Mandarin and English status among us.
You are worried of the deterioration of the standard Penang Hokkien. Again, what is the standard Penang Hokkien? Maybe 100 years ago, batu is still called chiou tau, now it is called batu (I just simply give an imaginary example), so, which is the standard Penang Hokkien?
I speak Penang Hokkien, I have the personal emotional link to it. I hope Penang Hokkien could be used continuously for a very long forsseable future. But it is hard, reality doesn't allow us to promote Penang Hokkien as a language of education.
So, I think to let it untouched is a more practical option.
Everyone's response is appreciated.
Eng Wai
First, is the issue of respect is your main concern regarding Penang Hokkien? If it is, we could easily resume the dignity of Penang Hokkien through advocation, not necessary via proper Penang Hokkien education which will add much burden to everyone.
The preservation of the language is more important. It should be preserved because it is the reflect of our idendity and local and current social environment. If we let it untouched, Penang Hokkien will evolved in accordance to the demand of Penangite. It is already happening now, eg more Mandarin and English words being incorporated into Penang Hokkien that reflects the rising of Mandarin and English status among us.
You are worried of the deterioration of the standard Penang Hokkien. Again, what is the standard Penang Hokkien? Maybe 100 years ago, batu is still called chiou tau, now it is called batu (I just simply give an imaginary example), so, which is the standard Penang Hokkien?
I speak Penang Hokkien, I have the personal emotional link to it. I hope Penang Hokkien could be used continuously for a very long forsseable future. But it is hard, reality doesn't allow us to promote Penang Hokkien as a language of education.
So, I think to let it untouched is a more practical option.
Everyone's response is appreciated.
Eng Wai
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Tang Loon Kong
Re: Penang Hokkien
Hello Ladies and Gentlemen
Ta Keh Ho
Well, it seems that I have been busy teaching my students.
However, welcome to the forum Mr Eng Wai. Incidentally, I have a nephew who is in London and his name is Ang Keat Beng, who working for some fund manager firm.
The pace of of our forum seemed to have picked up fast and furious, and I think our energy must be used constructively, if it had not been.
Nobody had commented about my decriptions and intrapolation of Hokkien history during the Ming and Yuan dynasties. And quite amazingly, the influence of the Dutch on Hokkien History, and hence the possbile globaliztion of the Hokkien dialect.
Recently, when I discussed with some Chinese mainlanders about the last Ming crown prince running to Fujian, China, and battling the Manchus from there, they were very surprised of that fact because they though the move was a last desparate and random move by the dying Ming monarchy. Well, I simply explained, "Under attack, would you run and hide in a house where there are people that you do not trust?" Therefore the degree of trust for the Hokkiens in the Ming court must be quite serious. And from that angle, it means that the trust could have gone a long way before. Hence, the Hokkiens would have enormous influence in the Ming court. The rest was history.
I do thank "Eng Wai" for spending four years in Penang. I hope that he enjoyed the Penang hospitality greatly, and I wish that he would return to visit the great place every chance he gets.
Nevertheless, I do have to remind you ladies and gentlemen that in Penang Hokkien, or at the the "Amoy" Hokkien that door is "mui" and and not "meng". We can very easily argue from the English word "Amoy", and give a little twist becomes "Amui". Most Teochew would have called it "Meng" instead fo Mui. Instead of "Png" it is "Pnui". "Tng" for "Tnui", "Nng" for "Nui". The validity for these "....ui" have the root in the English word "Amoy". Therefore,s afe to conclude that "...ui" originated from Xiamen which was at one time the maritime centre of Ming China.
So from here, I would again stress that there are quite a few English that have Hokkien origins. e.g. tea, lychee, ginseng, and ketchup, and why not mouse, which I think is "miau-chu"? Perhaps a geanoloy check on the mouse species would confirm this. Do you remember the "black plague" of Europe? Where did the disease come from - mouse, I think?" and why was there a plague - because the Europeans had no history of dealing with them, and therefore sufferrred greatly because the mouse were a foreigner - I am just offerring a possible explanation. Check with their sailing logbooks where the ships went at that time, maybe they will confirm the suggested answer.
To Eng Wai: When I said that some Malay words had origins from Hokkiens, intention was to show that Hokkiens and Malays are closer that we thought. For your information, you should try to find out the origins of words like "ayah" and "ibu" ?
See you next time.
Keep the fire - it is winter in Shanghai here, and Oooh! It is so foggy.
Thank
Tang Loon Kong
Ta Keh Ho
Well, it seems that I have been busy teaching my students.
However, welcome to the forum Mr Eng Wai. Incidentally, I have a nephew who is in London and his name is Ang Keat Beng, who working for some fund manager firm.
The pace of of our forum seemed to have picked up fast and furious, and I think our energy must be used constructively, if it had not been.
Nobody had commented about my decriptions and intrapolation of Hokkien history during the Ming and Yuan dynasties. And quite amazingly, the influence of the Dutch on Hokkien History, and hence the possbile globaliztion of the Hokkien dialect.
Recently, when I discussed with some Chinese mainlanders about the last Ming crown prince running to Fujian, China, and battling the Manchus from there, they were very surprised of that fact because they though the move was a last desparate and random move by the dying Ming monarchy. Well, I simply explained, "Under attack, would you run and hide in a house where there are people that you do not trust?" Therefore the degree of trust for the Hokkiens in the Ming court must be quite serious. And from that angle, it means that the trust could have gone a long way before. Hence, the Hokkiens would have enormous influence in the Ming court. The rest was history.
I do thank "Eng Wai" for spending four years in Penang. I hope that he enjoyed the Penang hospitality greatly, and I wish that he would return to visit the great place every chance he gets.
Nevertheless, I do have to remind you ladies and gentlemen that in Penang Hokkien, or at the the "Amoy" Hokkien that door is "mui" and and not "meng". We can very easily argue from the English word "Amoy", and give a little twist becomes "Amui". Most Teochew would have called it "Meng" instead fo Mui. Instead of "Png" it is "Pnui". "Tng" for "Tnui", "Nng" for "Nui". The validity for these "....ui" have the root in the English word "Amoy". Therefore,s afe to conclude that "...ui" originated from Xiamen which was at one time the maritime centre of Ming China.
So from here, I would again stress that there are quite a few English that have Hokkien origins. e.g. tea, lychee, ginseng, and ketchup, and why not mouse, which I think is "miau-chu"? Perhaps a geanoloy check on the mouse species would confirm this. Do you remember the "black plague" of Europe? Where did the disease come from - mouse, I think?" and why was there a plague - because the Europeans had no history of dealing with them, and therefore sufferrred greatly because the mouse were a foreigner - I am just offerring a possible explanation. Check with their sailing logbooks where the ships went at that time, maybe they will confirm the suggested answer.
To Eng Wai: When I said that some Malay words had origins from Hokkiens, intention was to show that Hokkiens and Malays are closer that we thought. For your information, you should try to find out the origins of words like "ayah" and "ibu" ?
See you next time.
Keep the fire - it is winter in Shanghai here, and Oooh! It is so foggy.
Thank
Tang Loon Kong
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Andrew Yong
Re: Penang Hokkien
You need to do some background reading before you come up with these theories.
The -ui~ is a Zhangzhou pronunciation. Xiamen pronunciation is -ng. The name Amoy is pronounced e-mng in Xiamen, and ε-mui~ in Zhangzhou. The English name 'Amoy' is said to be derived from the Fuzhou pronunciation, being the provincial capital dialect, but I have no way of confirming this. The Dialects of China database gives me a-muong for the Fuzhou pronunciation, which is not helpful, but I cannot speak Fuzhou.
The -ui~ is a Zhangzhou pronunciation. Xiamen pronunciation is -ng. The name Amoy is pronounced e-mng in Xiamen, and ε-mui~ in Zhangzhou. The English name 'Amoy' is said to be derived from the Fuzhou pronunciation, being the provincial capital dialect, but I have no way of confirming this. The Dialects of China database gives me a-muong for the Fuzhou pronunciation, which is not helpful, but I cannot speak Fuzhou.
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hong
Re: Penang Hokkien
I think this article by prof Chiu is very good about penang minnan.The sound is chiangchiu but the vocabulary are not.
http://www.pastako.com/zzxsx/Article_Sh ... icleID=270
http://www.pastako.com/zzxsx/Article_Sh ... icleID=270
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hong
Re: Penang Hokkien
oh my god.wrong againhttp://www.pastako.com/zzxsx/Article_Show.asp?ArticleID=270