I would like to learn Hokkien

hong · Post by **hong** » Tue Mar 01, 2005 12:19 pm

the pitch for some sects in above web site are not the same with the other online book.there are no high yangshang tone for zhangpu,zhaoan .
Who is the writer ?I don't know where are better because I don't have old ducth-chiangchiu dict and prof.Ma doesn't reply my email.

hong · Post by **hong** » Tue Mar 01, 2005 11:55 pm

sorry,it should be yangping above.The web site should put in the syllable contraction for the word in ciangchiu WHO- tsua instead of one word from mandarin.

Aurelio · Post by **Aurelio** » Wed Mar 02, 2005 3:41 am

Eng Wai:

Wonder whether you found my reply between all those links ...

Aurelio

Eng Wai · Post by **Eng Wai** » Wed Mar 02, 2005 10:10 pm

Aurelio,

Sorry, I had been sick, busier at work, and also busy writing some political posts on the Asiawind forum.

I can't differentiate 3rd tone and 7th tone. They are both like the 3rd tone in Mandarin for me. The 8th tone and 4th tone are similar to me as well.

For me, the first tine is high level.
Scond tone is high falling (higher than 1st)
Third tone is low tone
Fourth tone is medium high level
Fifth tone is medium rising (similar to 2nd tone in Mandarin)
Sixth tone not applicaple
Seventh tone is undistinguishable from thrid tone, ie low tone.
Eight tone, I pronounce "eat" as "chiak4", so "chiak4 mi3 kia3"

Can you give me more examples for different tones? Maybe I pronounce those examples wrongly. Or can you use the number indication for each tone? I think for the first tone is 444, 2nd tone is 543 etc.

Thanks!!

Eng Wai

hong · Post by **hong** » Thu Mar 03, 2005 12:34 am

It is okay for anyone just to learn xiamen or ciangchiu minnan but saying that there are no 6th tone is surely wrong .We have cuanchiu (not yongchun and tongan/jinmen)with 6 th but no 7th tone.
To learn the tones,the only way is go to web site with sound.nobody can do anything in here.
there will be no problem if we speak 3rd and 7 th tone in jinmen and tongan sects because 3rd is 12 but 7th is 22
In cuanchiu , 2nd tone is not high falling .I think north malasian get it right for the word si2 死die in cuanchiu style .

Andrew · Post by **Andrew** » Thu Mar 03, 2005 12:43 am

Eng:

-h is a glottal stop -k is a k, for example 肉 is bah, but 目 is bak. Malay -k is in some places actually more like a glottal stop, which is why you may be confused.

Sim and I also cannot tell apart 3 and 7. I think in Penang, like Chiangchiu, it is almost identical. However, the trick is to find out the sandhi form, e.g. chhau3 (smelly) is clearly 3 because in chhau3-bi7 it is high, whereas bi (smell) is clearly 7 because in bi7-sO3 it is low.

The general rule for sandhi is:

1 > 7 < 5
^ v
2 < 3

4<>8

Andrew · Post by **Andrew** » Thu Mar 03, 2005 12:46 am

Also, remember if the ending is -h -k -t -p then the tone must be either 4 or 8.

It is worth thinking in terms of the 7 tones, because then you will understand the sandhi forms.

hong · Post by **hong** » Thu Mar 03, 2005 12:54 am

In ciangchiu sects,only zhangpu and zhaoan have 11 and 33 for 3rd and 7th which will be easier.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Thu Mar 03, 2005 12:56 pm

Hong, Which Hokkien dialet do you recommend me to learn? First I want to learn how to transcript Hokkien, then I might want to proceed to learning "standard" taiwanese Hokkien.

Andrew, I can't really differentiate glottal stop and k-ending. I can distinguish a little bit, but I need more time to find the clear division. Lets put this aside first, I wanna learn tone first. I am trying to put this thread in a more sectioned thread, so next time when me or someone else can refer to this more easily.

I pronounce "smelly" as chhau4 bi7. How do you pronounce "Very smelly" is chhin cia chhau?

Eng Wai

hong · Post by **hong** » Thu Mar 03, 2005 1:11 pm

As a non minnan original,I think you should learn to speak xiamen minnan but not any taiwanese minnan or other sects.I start my wu language with shanghai but not others in suzhou,etc.I start hakka with mexian but not dapu.,etc
What do you mean by transcript minnan?any zhuyin and roman alphabet are working well,the only thing is taiwan's spelling are without ciangchiu special vowel.
The most important thing is about knowing minnan benzi then follow by knowledge of eact sect.I don't think we can learn good minnan from taiwanese because too many things have been left out by their scholars and laymen.
On the other hand ,I know that young chuanchiu people in huian and jinjiang (china) are throwing away chuanchiu marked vowel like w,etc and swtich to xiamen minnan instead.cuanchiu vowel are not natural.