I would like to learn Hokkien

Eng Wai · Post by **Eng Wai** » Sun Mar 06, 2005 8:09 pm

Eng Wai wrote: ...
On hwat basis these tones are called 陰陽上? I konw in Mandarin 陰陽上去 are tone 1,2,3,4 respectively. 入 seems to be used for "short" tone (4, .
...
Eng Wai

It should be, "on WHAT basis......... "short" tone (4, 8 )."

Cheers

Eng Wai

hong · Post by **hong** » Mon Mar 07, 2005 12:21 am

To get the average tone in any area,we must find at least 25 women and 25 men there to do some test in studio ,then only we can figure out the pitch.
Penang or north malaysian speak minnan with a bit of Northern ciangchiu tones but the vocabulary is too far from ciangchiu.
Example,the most common word - man is not tapoo but ca poo in ciangchiu sects with the poo is not the same in southern sects.
I don't think expert will write a thesis saying 3 and 7 tone is virtually identical in Amoy and chiangchiu except in sandhi form.

hong · Post by **hong** » Mon Mar 07, 2005 12:57 am

I am not sure how many scholar in taiwan put tone 3 and tone 7 as almost the same but I think most of them put 7th as higher.
However,wi-vun chiung 's test using 11 males and 11 females from taiwan and get the result as 7th is 21 lower than 3rd=31.
Strangely he gets 1st= 434.5th as 212.Both 4th and 8th are 32.

hong · Post by **hong** » Mon Mar 07, 2005 1:12 am

I find it hard to believe Andrew's view of putting 4th=2,8th=5 which look like mingdong sect entering tones .There is only one minnan sect in the west which has this kind of entering tones.大田datian.
Unless some tests have been done,I can't accept this.

hong · Post by **hong** » Mon Mar 07, 2005 2:36 am

I don't rule out teochew influence on minnan in north malaysia because some teochew sects entering tone are yinru=2 yangru= 5.This is a job for expect to listen and decide is that sounded like teochew .
It is interesting to know that changdai of ciangchiu has 8th tone = 232

Andrew · Post by **Andrew** » Mon Mar 07, 2005 10:40 pm

Hong, I do not have a studio. I can only give approximations - if you want to carry out a survey, go ahead.

Perhaps these are more realistic:

1 = 44
2 = 53
3 = 21
4 = (32)
5 = 24
6
7 = 22
8 = 4

I don't know if 3 and 7 are 100% identical, but certainly most Penangites can't tell the difference. Glossika gives Chiangchiu as 7=22, 3=21.

Eng Wai: The Mandarin tones are 陰平, 陽平, 上, 去.
The Amoy Hokkien tones are 陰平, 陽平, 上, 陰去, 陽去, 陰入, 陽入.
In pehoeji the order is 陰平, 上, 陰去, 陰入, 陽平, (上), 陽去, 陽入. Some dialects have two 上 tones and only one 去 tone. In Amoy it is two 去 and one 上.

Andrew · Post by **Andrew** » Mon Mar 07, 2005 10:50 pm

Eng Wai: In pehoeji if two or more words are hyphenated A-B-C, all but C are in sandhi form. If two words are connected A--B, then A is original tone and B is like a Mandarin 輕聲

e.g. hok4-kien3-hE5-miN7 is pronounced hok(8)-kien(2)-hE(7)-miN7. Only the last does not change. The 3->2 rule is not clear in Penang - I think most Penangites use a 3->1 sandhi rule.

I have already told you to distinguish 3 and 7 the easiest way is to say the sandhi form if you can.

hong · Post by **hong** » Mon Mar 07, 2005 11:45 pm

andrew,
The new tones you gave are better.The reason experts put tone 2nd and 6th as identical is because both are high falling but tone 3rd and tone7th are not same kind of tone.
It is not a problem of studio but the meter that I don't have.In taiwan they do it in University.

hong · Post by **hong** » Tue Mar 08, 2005 10:02 am

I think most malaysians still retain the sandhi form of hok3 kian2 but not kian3 in words like hokkianlang.Yes ,it is mistakenly become 1 for this word mainly because we have to say this- hokkien even in malay and english.
There are no kian3 in english and malay

hong · Post by **hong** » Wed Mar 09, 2005 9:57 am

It is interesting to know tha Ciangchiu city 's 8th tone is 121,the second highest after changdai
I have no idea what this scholar done on this web page.I just give the link
www.forever.idv.tw/writer/V02/V0200201.htm