On the same topic as the previous thread, I would like to share some observations regarding the Hanzi for Hokkien words as published in several sources I have come across:
1. I have often seen the word "bue" (need, 需要) rendered into Hanzi as "卜". I have to disagree, as the meaning of 卜 recorded in large dictionaries is "divination". The more likely Hanzi is 必, which is a direct synonym of 需要.
2. The phrase "还没有" is often rendered in phrase books as "未恪". I have a feeling that it should be " 未更". Again, dictionaries define 更 as "still", or "as yet", which is the original meaning of the word in Classical Chinese.
3. Be/moi (porridge/gruel) is often written as 粥 on shop signs in Malaysia. The correct Hanzi should be 糜, which also means porridge.
4. The "ci" in "ci le" (this) is often written as "這". I think it is more likely to be "此". 這 is more likely to be pronounced "chia". Following the phonetic patterns between Mandarin and Hokkien, "e" in Mandarin is generally congruent with "ia" in Hokkien (e.g. 社, 射, 車). Besides, I believe 這 is historically peculiar to Mandarin.
5. Some variants of Min refer to "doctor" as "loh kun" rather than "ee seng". I have been told that "loh kun" is derived from the Malay word "dukun". I have some doubts about this, and believe that it is derived from the words "老君", the same way doctors in China used to be referred to as "大夫" - comment?
6. I have heard several theories about the Hanzi for "mia-chai" (tomorrow). (a) fusion of 明日 (b) fusion of 明朝起 (c) fusion of 明日朝起 . Anyone has any ideas.
7. Anyone knows the Hanzi for "tam" and "ta" (wet and dry)? I have worked through the Hanzi for most of the common words peculiar to Minnan, but these two really elude me. Even the Kangxi dictionary does not help.
Regards,
Mark
More Chinese characters for Hokkien words
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hong
tomorrow is mia/minn a cai 明仔再.
beh/bueh cannot be 必。It could be a baidu of 欲.In old chinese there are no要 but many yu 欲as verb。
koo3 is 固=still,I have given the article by Prof.yang
此is only chu2.it should be 即 cit or zhe 者for ciah.
You should mention ber as chuan chiu sound as well.
Prof Lim form china as given tam/ta in his book.Why don't you buy the book from the expert?
beh/bueh cannot be 必。It could be a baidu of 欲.In old chinese there are no要 but many yu 欲as verb。
koo3 is 固=still,I have given the article by Prof.yang
此is only chu2.it should be 即 cit or zhe 者for ciah.
You should mention ber as chuan chiu sound as well.
Prof Lim form china as given tam/ta in his book.Why don't you buy the book from the expert?
What about "ko ka ho"? Does that mean it is 固加好 rather than 更加好?hong wrote:tomorrow is mia/minn a cai 明仔再.
beh/bueh cannot be 必。It could be a baidu of 欲.In old chinese there are no要 but many yu 欲as verb。
koo3 is 固=still,I have given the article by Prof.yang
此is only chu2.it should be 即 cit or zhe 者for ciah.
You should mention ber as chuan chiu sound as well.
Prof Lim form china as given tam/ta in his book.Why don't you buy the book from the expert?
Names of animals in Hokkien
Does anyone know the Hanzi for "ch'iau ngeh" (scorpion)? I have looked up both Mathews' Chinese dictionary and Kangxi, but have not found it (though, I have found "chim" for crab in Kangxi). I am sure for object nouns like this, we can find it in Kangxi without depending on 台语词典, right?
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Andrew
I think most people use 較 for khah4, but I am not sure about the pronunciation - sometimes people say ka or kah or kha. koh4 is given by Douglas/Barclay as 復 (文: hok4).
It is important to remember that many of these hanzi are either speculative or conventional. There are at least five hanzi in use for e5 (的, 個, 之, 兮, 其)
I would also like to know the word for tam5. I don't have the book Hong cites. Douglas/Barclay has 焦 (文:ciau1) for ta1.
When giving the pronunciation of new words, could the people who know how to please give the tones as well, as it is useless without tones.
It is important to remember that many of these hanzi are either speculative or conventional. There are at least five hanzi in use for e5 (的, 個, 之, 兮, 其)
I would also like to know the word for tam5. I don't have the book Hong cites. Douglas/Barclay has 焦 (文:ciau1) for ta1.
When giving the pronunciation of new words, could the people who know how to please give the tones as well, as it is useless without tones.
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Andrew
Yes, 較 is generally used in Penang Hokkien for adjective comparisons. The Hokkien speakers I have encountered both in Penang and Singapore pronounce 較 as "kha", not "ka", so your version appears to be correct.
I may have to disagree with you on e5 being represented by one of the five Hanzis 的, 個, 之, 兮 or 其. As far as I know, four of them already have defined Min pronunciations, i.e.
的 - tēk
個 - kō
之 - cî
其 - kh'ǐ
兮 appears to be a breath marker in between stanzas of poems, so it is doubtful whether it functions in Min as a possessive particle. It may be possible that "e1", like its counterpart "gae" in Cantonese, really has no defined Hanzi in speech, but historically relied on 之 in written form.
For ta1 (dry), the Hanzi 焦 ciao1 seems to be a different word from ta1. The reason I say that is because coincidentally, the word 焦 means "scorched or burnt", and the Minnan phrase for burnt dry happens to be "ciao1 ta1", which implies that it is "焦 ta1". What do you think?
I checked Kangxi, and note that 蟳 is defined as "青蟳也", which doesn't really help except to imply that the species is either blue or green (from what I was told, 青 in Classical Chinese means blue, per the 三字經). Sorry, but I cannot find your chih2 - is that the Min pronunciation? Could you provide me with another Min word with the same pronunciation (and preferebly the same tone)?
PS. I note your request to have the tones included in Romanisation of characters. Regretfully, I am not familiar with the standard numerical classification for tones, but I am aware of the 5 tones as used by Bodman, i.e.:
high, e.g. 兵
rising, e.g. 龍
falling, e.g. 泠
low, e.g. 色
mid, e.g 成功
I'm not sure if this corresponds to your numbering system, and if so, whether the sequence (1-5) is correct. If anyone can help me with the standard numerical system, I would be most grateful.
I may have to disagree with you on e5 being represented by one of the five Hanzis 的, 個, 之, 兮 or 其. As far as I know, four of them already have defined Min pronunciations, i.e.
的 - tēk
個 - kō
之 - cî
其 - kh'ǐ
兮 appears to be a breath marker in between stanzas of poems, so it is doubtful whether it functions in Min as a possessive particle. It may be possible that "e1", like its counterpart "gae" in Cantonese, really has no defined Hanzi in speech, but historically relied on 之 in written form.
For ta1 (dry), the Hanzi 焦 ciao1 seems to be a different word from ta1. The reason I say that is because coincidentally, the word 焦 means "scorched or burnt", and the Minnan phrase for burnt dry happens to be "ciao1 ta1", which implies that it is "焦 ta1". What do you think?
I checked Kangxi, and note that 蟳 is defined as "青蟳也", which doesn't really help except to imply that the species is either blue or green (from what I was told, 青 in Classical Chinese means blue, per the 三字經). Sorry, but I cannot find your chih2 - is that the Min pronunciation? Could you provide me with another Min word with the same pronunciation (and preferebly the same tone)?
PS. I note your request to have the tones included in Romanisation of characters. Regretfully, I am not familiar with the standard numerical classification for tones, but I am aware of the 5 tones as used by Bodman, i.e.:
high, e.g. 兵
rising, e.g. 龍
falling, e.g. 泠
low, e.g. 色
mid, e.g 成功
I'm not sure if this corresponds to your numbering system, and if so, whether the sequence (1-5) is correct. If anyone can help me with the standard numerical system, I would be most grateful.
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Andrew
I didn't say any of them were correct - I said they were in use and were probably speculative or conventional. But just because you can find another pronunciation for them doesn't mean they aren't correct. e5 in baidu can also be pronounced ge5, le5, de5, etc., and there is no reason why the wendu pronunciation should be the same as either of them. I personally use 個 because the meaning matches both the possessive e5 and the quantifier e5.
The 7 tones in Amoy Hokkien are
1 yinping/high
2 shang/high falling
3 yinqu/low falling
4 yinru/low stopped
5 yangping/rising
6 same as 2
7 yangqu/mid
8 yangru/high stopped
In Penang Hokkien the two qu tones are very similar.
The 7 tones in Amoy Hokkien are
1 yinping/high
2 shang/high falling
3 yinqu/low falling
4 yinru/low stopped
5 yangping/rising
6 same as 2
7 yangqu/mid
8 yangru/high stopped
In Penang Hokkien the two qu tones are very similar.
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Guest
>> what is the actual difference between the two types of crab,
>> cim5 蟳 and chih2, and what is the hanzi for the latter?
Hi Andrew,
In my family's usage (which I think applies for a lot of Penang people), cim5 is the "mudcrab". It is "smooth"-looking, rather "bulky" (round and fat). Uncooked, it's a dark brownish-green. Cooked, it turns into an even light orange-red. It is found in mangrove swamps and the mouths of rivers (and also along the coast, in more muddy environments), and, as the name implies, tends to burrow into mud or sand.
chih2 is the "blue swimmer crab". It is rather "angular" and full of spikes. Uncooked, it is blueish with white specks. Cooked, it is reddish with white specks. It is found in more open water, further off the coast, and, as it's name implies, swims quite a lot.
Because of my Australian background, I use the terms "mudcrab" and "blue swimmer". Like many animal names, I imagine that these may vary throughout the English speaking world.
Regards,
Sim.
>> cim5 蟳 and chih2, and what is the hanzi for the latter?
Hi Andrew,
In my family's usage (which I think applies for a lot of Penang people), cim5 is the "mudcrab". It is "smooth"-looking, rather "bulky" (round and fat). Uncooked, it's a dark brownish-green. Cooked, it turns into an even light orange-red. It is found in mangrove swamps and the mouths of rivers (and also along the coast, in more muddy environments), and, as the name implies, tends to burrow into mud or sand.
chih2 is the "blue swimmer crab". It is rather "angular" and full of spikes. Uncooked, it is blueish with white specks. Cooked, it is reddish with white specks. It is found in more open water, further off the coast, and, as it's name implies, swims quite a lot.
Because of my Australian background, I use the terms "mudcrab" and "blue swimmer". Like many animal names, I imagine that these may vary throughout the English speaking world.
Regards,
Sim.