Mark: I'm having trouble understanding your romanisation. Some letters come out as boxes, and I don't know what you mean by your v-shaped accent. I presume you mean the 5th tone by the circumflex accent; if so 'few' should be 2nd tone? Is ae the same as e or E?
勢 is correct according to Barclay, but it appears that it can be both se3 and si3, depending on the meaning. In Chiangchiu si3 is used for all meanings.
More Chinese characters for Hokkien words
Hi, Andrew,Andrew wrote:Mark: I'm having trouble understanding your romanisation. Some letters come out as boxes, and I don't know what you mean by your v-shaped accent. I presume you mean the 5th tone by the circumflex accent; if so 'few' should be 2nd tone? Is ae the same as e or E?
For the v's appearing above vowels, an upward v (^) indicates a high tone, a downward v indicates a low tone, an upward slating line indicates a rising tone, a straight line (-) indicates a mid tone.
'ae' is the same as E.
'few' should be the high tone - same as the Mandarin 1st tone.
Again, I do apologise for my non-standard phonology. I meant to print out the tone list you posted, but somehow never got down to it. Wherever possible from here on, I will try my best to use the convention you and Sim have laid out.
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hong
mark,
this is very important.You mention teohew become m for minnan b.I have mentioned in other topic it is because minnan has 15 consonants but teochew /putian has m,ng and n ,etc 18 consonants together to be used in the beginning of a word.
Minnna ng,n,m at the beginning of a word is because of nn/~/N at the back to force it into b>m,l>n.g>ng. Do you understand?
a single Word begin with m(for no), ng (黃) are just exception.
In Putian 閩 is pronunced mang which is not possible in minnan due to no nn at the back and we don't m as a consonant
this is very important.You mention teohew become m for minnan b.I have mentioned in other topic it is because minnan has 15 consonants but teochew /putian has m,ng and n ,etc 18 consonants together to be used in the beginning of a word.
Minnna ng,n,m at the beginning of a word is because of nn/~/N at the back to force it into b>m,l>n.g>ng. Do you understand?
a single Word begin with m(for no), ng (黃) are just exception.
In Putian 閩 is pronunced mang which is not possible in minnan due to no nn at the back and we don't m as a consonant
-
hong
I just have Prof.Li Rulong(69 years old now) of xiamen university book called 漢語方言特征詞研究.
dry= ta1 焦is from 礁 (精組字)with a baidu vowel-a.He doesn'r agree with his prof 黃典誠(the one who is prof for his PhD degree 30years ago) view of 凋 as the benzi because there is no vowel a from here.
I can't type out long paragraph 礁above.
He also said 儕for many is correct hanzi with examples from 說文解字﹐集韻﹐
dry= ta1 焦is from 礁 (精組字)with a baidu vowel-a.He doesn'r agree with his prof 黃典誠(the one who is prof for his PhD degree 30years ago) view of 凋 as the benzi because there is no vowel a from here.
I can't type out long paragraph 礁above.
He also said 儕for many is correct hanzi with examples from 說文解字﹐集韻﹐
-
Andrew
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niuc
Hi all 
After reading your postings about 蟹, I recall that we call a kind of small crab - about 2-3 cm only with beautiful metallic colours and only one big pincer/"arm" - 天公蟹 thi*1-kong1-hue7.
Mark, we call scorpion chiu*3_kiat4 (in sandhi). It can be chiu*7 or chiu*5, both have the same sandi (tone 3) in my dialect (同安 Tang5-ua*1). Kiat4 should be a variation of giat4 蝎, unless I pronounce it wrongly. Btw Douglas' gives iat4 as the literary pronunciation.
We call 杜猴 as 土猴 tho`5-kau5, I saw it several times in my hometown but didn't know that it was big cricket (or mole cricket, according to Sim). I heard 蟋蟀 pronounced as ky3(ky4)-sut4, don't know if it's just a variation or mispronunciation.
Domestic lizard: we call it sin7-lang5 or sian7-lang5, others: sin7-thang5, sian7-thang5. Some say that it should be written as 善蟲.
According to Douglas', 龜 ku1 (tortoise) is also used for beetle. We call ladybird 金龜 kim1-ku1.
Bed-bug bak8-sat4 is 木虱. bak8 is wood (lit. bok8). Sim, you pronounce it as bat8 (bat4 in sandhi) may be due to the final -t of sat4. Is this called assimilation?
I think I heard of gu5-pi1 牛? and kau2-pi1 狗? but mostly chau2-pi1 草? - a kind of very small tick that can bite and cause swell, especially to children.
Chy1 sounds more like larva to me. We call mosquito larva cui2-chy1 水? "water larva".
Butterfly is ho`5-tiap8 蝴蝶 in ours. We call another kind - may be moth - ya8. Can ya8 be 蝶 also (compare with 葉)? We call caterpillar kau2-mng5-a4-thang5 ?毛仔蟲.
Sim, cang7 kri1 (cicada) is a loan from Malay "jangkrik". But now I am not sure if jangkrik is cricket or cicada. It's am1-po`5-che5 in E-mng (Douglas'), a1-i5 in Tang-ua*. Katak is indeed frog in Malay but I never heard of puru in Indonesian. And as mentioned by Hong, we call frog 田蛤仔 chan5-kap4-a8. Toad should be 蟾蜍 ciu*1-cy5 (I heard this from my parents but rarely used).
I remember there were a lot of ku1-sin5 (aphids) at our nai2-a4-puat8-chiu7 guava tree. Sim, you surely are very good in English vocab - especially about insects. I don't even know what's ku1-sin5 in Indonesian. Btw, I read that there are certain ants that rear ku1-sin5 as their milk cows - very interesting!
I think chE*1 in "hue1 kim7 chE*1" (firefly) probably is 星 (star). Your Penang poem about firefly is very interesting. Taiwanese call it 火金姑 hue2-kim1-ko`1. We call it ka1-lak4-ke1-a8 but dunno what's the meaning of each morphemes
We call praying mantis tak4-ku1-chi7-a0 (again, dunno the meaning of the morphemes) or literary 螳螂 tong5-long5.
糜 porridge can be pronounced as ber5, be5, bue5, mue5, muai5, mOi5, mui5, etc. Same for 妹 ber7 sister.
We never use 青 chi*1 for green, but blue and cyan. I think chi*1 should be cyan. I read that originally 青 means the colour of nature i.e. mix of blue & green, and in certain context can mean black. 籃 lam5 for us is only dark blue. We always use 綠 lik8 for green.
About tau7-ge5 豆芽, before I knew the correct chinese characters, same as Sim, I used to think that it looked like fang/tooth (牙 ge5) and have the same colour. May be it's quite for us to think that way. Btw we usually use 齒 khi2 for tooth, ge5 is rarer.
Mark, I also think iong5 (strong, healthy) is 勇 (brave).
There is a easy way to learn tone based on animal names:
陰平 tone 1: 獅 sai1 = lion
陰上 tone 2: 虎 ho`2 = tiger
陰去 tone 3: 兔 tho`3 = rabbit
陰入 tone 4: 鴨 a4 (ah4) = duck
陽平 tone 5: 牛 gu5 = cow
陽上 tone 6: 馬 be2 = horse (2nd & 6th tones has merged in Hokkien)
陽去 tone 7: 象 chiu*7 = elephant
陽入 tone 8: 鹿 lok8 = deer
I don't write glottal stop -h because I can't feel it. In my dialect a2 and a4 sound identical but have different sandhis, e.g. 止 ci2 and 接 ci4 (cih4) sound identical but not in sandhi (ci5 and ci8 respectively).
After reading your postings about 蟹, I recall that we call a kind of small crab - about 2-3 cm only with beautiful metallic colours and only one big pincer/"arm" - 天公蟹 thi*1-kong1-hue7.
Mark, we call scorpion chiu*3_kiat4 (in sandhi). It can be chiu*7 or chiu*5, both have the same sandi (tone 3) in my dialect (同安 Tang5-ua*1). Kiat4 should be a variation of giat4 蝎, unless I pronounce it wrongly.
Btw Douglas' gives iat4 as the literary pronunciation.We call 杜猴 as 土猴 tho`5-kau5, I saw it several times in my hometown but didn't know that it was big cricket (or mole cricket, according to Sim). I heard 蟋蟀 pronounced as ky3(ky4)-sut4, don't know if it's just a variation or mispronunciation.
Domestic lizard: we call it sin7-lang5 or sian7-lang5, others: sin7-thang5, sian7-thang5. Some say that it should be written as 善蟲.
According to Douglas', 龜 ku1 (tortoise) is also used for beetle. We call ladybird 金龜 kim1-ku1.
Bed-bug bak8-sat4 is 木虱. bak8 is wood (lit. bok8). Sim, you pronounce it as bat8 (bat4 in sandhi) may be due to the final -t of sat4. Is this called assimilation?
I think I heard of gu5-pi1 牛? and kau2-pi1 狗? but mostly chau2-pi1 草? - a kind of very small tick that can bite and cause swell, especially to children.
Chy1 sounds more like larva to me. We call mosquito larva cui2-chy1 水? "water larva".
Butterfly is ho`5-tiap8 蝴蝶 in ours. We call another kind - may be moth - ya8. Can ya8 be 蝶 also (compare with 葉)? We call caterpillar kau2-mng5-a4-thang5 ?毛仔蟲.
Sim, cang7 kri1 (cicada) is a loan from Malay "jangkrik". But now I am not sure if jangkrik is cricket or cicada. It's am1-po`5-che5 in E-mng (Douglas'), a1-i5 in Tang-ua*. Katak is indeed frog in Malay but I never heard of puru in Indonesian. And as mentioned by Hong, we call frog 田蛤仔 chan5-kap4-a8. Toad should be 蟾蜍 ciu*1-cy5 (I heard this from my parents but rarely used).
I remember there were a lot of ku1-sin5 (aphids) at our nai2-a4-puat8-chiu7 guava tree. Sim, you surely are very good in English vocab - especially about insects. I don't even know what's ku1-sin5 in Indonesian. Btw, I read that there are certain ants that rear ku1-sin5 as their milk cows - very interesting!
I think chE*1 in "hue1 kim7 chE*1" (firefly) probably is 星 (star). Your Penang poem about firefly is very interesting. Taiwanese call it 火金姑 hue2-kim1-ko`1. We call it ka1-lak4-ke1-a8 but dunno what's the meaning of each morphemes
We call praying mantis tak4-ku1-chi7-a0 (again, dunno the meaning of the morphemes) or literary 螳螂 tong5-long5.
糜 porridge can be pronounced as ber5, be5, bue5, mue5, muai5, mOi5, mui5, etc. Same for 妹 ber7 sister.
We never use 青 chi*1 for green, but blue and cyan. I think chi*1 should be cyan. I read that originally 青 means the colour of nature i.e. mix of blue & green, and in certain context can mean black. 籃 lam5 for us is only dark blue. We always use 綠 lik8 for green.
About tau7-ge5 豆芽, before I knew the correct chinese characters, same as Sim, I used to think that it looked like fang/tooth (牙 ge5) and have the same colour. May be it's quite for us to think that way
. Btw we usually use 齒 khi2 for tooth, ge5 is rarer.Mark, I also think iong5 (strong, healthy) is 勇 (brave).
There is a easy way to learn tone based on animal names:
陰平 tone 1: 獅 sai1 = lion
陰上 tone 2: 虎 ho`2 = tiger
陰去 tone 3: 兔 tho`3 = rabbit
陰入 tone 4: 鴨 a4 (ah4) = duck
陽平 tone 5: 牛 gu5 = cow
陽上 tone 6: 馬 be2 = horse (2nd & 6th tones has merged in Hokkien)
陽去 tone 7: 象 chiu*7 = elephant
陽入 tone 8: 鹿 lok8 = deer
I don't write glottal stop -h because I can't feel it. In my dialect a2 and a4 sound identical but have different sandhis, e.g. 止 ci2 and 接 ci4 (cih4) sound identical but not in sandhi (ci5 and ci8 respectively).
-
niuc
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hong
Mark,I forgot to mention with just ng but not ang/ing at the back can still force l become n,b become m
Example- two in xia/chuan---lng>nng.door-bng>mng.
ng at the back like above is too strong unlike those weaker ing,ang.iong.
Also dict have omitted nn like mann become just ma because there are not much change of sound like tin and tinn,etc.
Example- two in xia/chuan---lng>nng.door-bng>mng.
ng at the back like above is too strong unlike those weaker ing,ang.iong.
Also dict have omitted nn like mann become just ma because there are not much change of sound like tin and tinn,etc.
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Casey
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Sim
Hi Niuc,
Thanks for your detailed response and new vocabulary!
>> ... I recall that we call a kind of small crab - about 2-3 cm only with beautiful
>> metallic colours and only one big pincer/"arm" - 天公蟹 thi*1-kong1-hue7.
I believe this crab is called a "fiddler crab" because it waves its single enlarged claw up and down a lot, and this is supposed to remind one of a violinist sawing up and down with his bow on a violin (a "fiddle" is an informal term for a violin).
They can be seen in huge numbers on sandy-muddy beaches when the tide is out - armies of them moving slowly together "grazing" food from the sand/mud. I’m aware of species where the claw is bright blue, and others where it is bright red. These single enlarged claws are used purely for "mating displays" (to scare of rival males, so only the males have them). They form a sort of puzzle for biologists because this is their sole purpose and they actually are a disadvantage to the crab because it only has one other claw to use for feeding. (A very similar situation to the very large antlers on mooses, elks, and some deer.)
I remember seeing some incredibly beautiful ones, with metallic blue claws, at "Morib" (which I believe is near Seremban or KL, I was taken there when I was very young).
A quick search on the internet produced these pics (there is a great utility in a lot of search engines to ask for "pictures of"). Unfortunately, only one of them has a blue claw (the 3rd link on my list):
http://www.naturia.per.sg/beachfleas/ph ... 13-04x.jpg
http://danny.server101.com/yowies/fcrab.jpg
http://www.starfishblue.com.au/gallery/ ... Crab_2.jpg
http://www.flmnh.ufl.edu/FISH/SouthFlor ... ercrab.JPG
http://www.sfu.ca/~fankbone/v/fiddler.jpg
http://www.seacanoe.net/images/fiddlerc ... iland).jpg
>> We call 杜猴 as 土猴 tho`5-kau5, I saw it several times in my hometown
>> but didn't know that it was big cricket (or mole cricket, according to Sim).
They are called *mole* crickets because they burrow a lot - even the Hokkien name with "tO5" suggests this. Their two front legs are very well adapted for burrowing, and are supposed to be extremely strong *and* sharp. I seem to remember reading an article about them which said that if you held them trapped in your hand, they could draw blood in their effort to dig to try get out. I never dared test this out as a child!
Again, the internet produced some quite nice pictures:
http://www.inra.fr/Internet/Produits/HY ... 031840.jpg
http://plaza.ufl.edu/kemc/molcrk.gif
http://aggie-horticulture.tamu.edu/cucu ... ct4.1.jpeg
http://www.bioimages.org.uk/MMWSt/Nikon ... F12C_2.jpg
http://insects.tamu.edu/images/insects/ ... mg0019.jpg
>> Domestic lizard: we call it sin7-lang5 or sian7-lang5, others: sin7-thang5,
>> sian7-thang5. Some say that it should be written as 善蟲.
In Australia they are called geckos (strictly speaking, they should be called the "common or house gecko", as "gecko" is actually a generic term). In Malaysia, as most of us know, they are often called by their Malay name: cicak. In my family, we used both terms: ci3-cah8 or sin7-thang5.
>> According to Douglas', 龜 ku1 (tortoise) is also used for beetle.
>> We call ladybird 金龜 kim1-ku1.
Thanks. Good to know that it’s the same character.
>> Bed-bug bak8-sat4 is 木虱. bak8 is wood (lit. bok8). Sim, you pronounce it as bat8
>> (bat4 in sandhi) may be due to the final -t of sat4. Is this called assimilation?
Yes Niuc, I think this is a case of assimilation.
>> Chy1 sounds more like larva to me. We call mosquito larva cui2-chy1
>> 水? "water larva".
Oh very interesting. We definitely only ever said "chu1". A typical case (like the gecko above) where the generic name is used for a specific animal because that’s the only one commonly talked about in an informal setting.
>> I remember there were a lot of ku1-sin5 (aphids) at
>> our nai2-a4-puat8-chiu7 guava tree. Sim, you surely
>> are very good in English vocab - especially about insects.
>> ... Btw, I read that there are certain ants that rear ku1-sin5
>> as their milk cows - very interesting!
Yes, this is correct. Ants bring them to a plant they know the aphid likes, and they will keep them clean and generally look after them. They stroke them and the aphids respond to the stroking by giving off a sweet liquid, which the ants use as food. That's why they are considered sort of "cows" for the ants.
Niuc, I was a very keen "amateur biologist" as a child. I read heaps of articles and books about animals of all kinds, and I had large jars where I kept caterpillars, praying mantises, and lots of pond-life. Up to the age of about 12 I was sure I was going to be a biologist when I grew up, but then I went to a "careers night" and the advisor there told me that there was NO WAY to become a biologist without cutting animals up (i.e. dissection practicals in the lab at university). As I’m a very sensitive soul, I absolutely refused to cut up dead rats and toads, so I realised that I couldn’t become a biologist, and ended up studying mathematics instead.
>> Btw we usually use 齒 khi2 for tooth, ge5 [牙] is rarer.
Yes, chui1-khi2 (we have a 3->1 sandhi rule in Penang Hokkien) is the normal word for tooth in my dialect too.
I don’t know if I said this in a previous thread (about body parts), but I only know the word ge5 in two combinations: chiau*3-ge5 (elephant tusk), used for a species of very large banana (the reason is obvious, it was large and looked like an elephant’s tusk); and bo7-ge7-po5 (presumably 無牙婆), used as a rather negative term to describe a toothless old woman.
BTW, I asked a Malay guy I know on the internet about some of the terms (including chiau* gE). This was the dialogue (slightly edited):
<Sim> Hi polar. 3 questions about Malay...
<Sim> 1. What is the difference between "katak" and "katak puru"?
<Sim> 2. What is the meaning of "jangkrik". Is it a cicada or a cricket?
<Sim> 3. There is a very large green banana in Malaysia, called in Hokkien "chiau~ gE" (elephant's tusk). It doesn't turn bright yellow when it's ripe, only slightly yellowish-green. It's main special feature is that it's very large (probably the largest of the species of bananas in Malaysia). What is it called in Malay?
<polar> 1. katak is generic ..katak puru is - toad
<polar> 2. jangkrik or cenkerik - cicada
<polar> 3. pisang tanduk - horns banana
Niuc: what word do you use for "toad" in Indonesia? Polar is interested to know too.
Regards,
Sim.
Thanks for your detailed response and new vocabulary!
>> ... I recall that we call a kind of small crab - about 2-3 cm only with beautiful
>> metallic colours and only one big pincer/"arm" - 天公蟹 thi*1-kong1-hue7.
I believe this crab is called a "fiddler crab" because it waves its single enlarged claw up and down a lot, and this is supposed to remind one of a violinist sawing up and down with his bow on a violin (a "fiddle" is an informal term for a violin).
They can be seen in huge numbers on sandy-muddy beaches when the tide is out - armies of them moving slowly together "grazing" food from the sand/mud. I’m aware of species where the claw is bright blue, and others where it is bright red. These single enlarged claws are used purely for "mating displays" (to scare of rival males, so only the males have them). They form a sort of puzzle for biologists because this is their sole purpose and they actually are a disadvantage to the crab because it only has one other claw to use for feeding. (A very similar situation to the very large antlers on mooses, elks, and some deer.)
I remember seeing some incredibly beautiful ones, with metallic blue claws, at "Morib" (which I believe is near Seremban or KL, I was taken there when I was very young).
A quick search on the internet produced these pics (there is a great utility in a lot of search engines to ask for "pictures of"). Unfortunately, only one of them has a blue claw (the 3rd link on my list):
http://www.naturia.per.sg/beachfleas/ph ... 13-04x.jpg
http://danny.server101.com/yowies/fcrab.jpg
http://www.starfishblue.com.au/gallery/ ... Crab_2.jpg
http://www.flmnh.ufl.edu/FISH/SouthFlor ... ercrab.JPG
http://www.sfu.ca/~fankbone/v/fiddler.jpg
http://www.seacanoe.net/images/fiddlerc ... iland).jpg
>> We call 杜猴 as 土猴 tho`5-kau5, I saw it several times in my hometown
>> but didn't know that it was big cricket (or mole cricket, according to Sim).
They are called *mole* crickets because they burrow a lot - even the Hokkien name with "tO5" suggests this. Their two front legs are very well adapted for burrowing, and are supposed to be extremely strong *and* sharp. I seem to remember reading an article about them which said that if you held them trapped in your hand, they could draw blood in their effort to dig to try get out. I never dared test this out as a child!
Again, the internet produced some quite nice pictures:
http://www.inra.fr/Internet/Produits/HY ... 031840.jpg
http://plaza.ufl.edu/kemc/molcrk.gif
http://aggie-horticulture.tamu.edu/cucu ... ct4.1.jpeg
http://www.bioimages.org.uk/MMWSt/Nikon ... F12C_2.jpg
http://insects.tamu.edu/images/insects/ ... mg0019.jpg
>> Domestic lizard: we call it sin7-lang5 or sian7-lang5, others: sin7-thang5,
>> sian7-thang5. Some say that it should be written as 善蟲.
In Australia they are called geckos (strictly speaking, they should be called the "common or house gecko", as "gecko" is actually a generic term). In Malaysia, as most of us know, they are often called by their Malay name: cicak. In my family, we used both terms: ci3-cah8 or sin7-thang5.
>> According to Douglas', 龜 ku1 (tortoise) is also used for beetle.
>> We call ladybird 金龜 kim1-ku1.
Thanks. Good to know that it’s the same character.
>> Bed-bug bak8-sat4 is 木虱. bak8 is wood (lit. bok8). Sim, you pronounce it as bat8
>> (bat4 in sandhi) may be due to the final -t of sat4. Is this called assimilation?
Yes Niuc, I think this is a case of assimilation.
>> Chy1 sounds more like larva to me. We call mosquito larva cui2-chy1
>> 水? "water larva".
Oh very interesting. We definitely only ever said "chu1". A typical case (like the gecko above) where the generic name is used for a specific animal because that’s the only one commonly talked about in an informal setting.
>> I remember there were a lot of ku1-sin5 (aphids) at
>> our nai2-a4-puat8-chiu7 guava tree. Sim, you surely
>> are very good in English vocab - especially about insects.
>> ... Btw, I read that there are certain ants that rear ku1-sin5
>> as their milk cows - very interesting!
Yes, this is correct. Ants bring them to a plant they know the aphid likes, and they will keep them clean and generally look after them. They stroke them and the aphids respond to the stroking by giving off a sweet liquid, which the ants use as food. That's why they are considered sort of "cows" for the ants.
Niuc, I was a very keen "amateur biologist" as a child. I read heaps of articles and books about animals of all kinds, and I had large jars where I kept caterpillars, praying mantises, and lots of pond-life. Up to the age of about 12 I was sure I was going to be a biologist when I grew up, but then I went to a "careers night" and the advisor there told me that there was NO WAY to become a biologist without cutting animals up (i.e. dissection practicals in the lab at university). As I’m a very sensitive soul, I absolutely refused to cut up dead rats and toads, so I realised that I couldn’t become a biologist, and ended up studying mathematics instead.
>> Btw we usually use 齒 khi2 for tooth, ge5 [牙] is rarer.
Yes, chui1-khi2 (we have a 3->1 sandhi rule in Penang Hokkien) is the normal word for tooth in my dialect too.
I don’t know if I said this in a previous thread (about body parts), but I only know the word ge5 in two combinations: chiau*3-ge5 (elephant tusk), used for a species of very large banana (the reason is obvious, it was large and looked like an elephant’s tusk); and bo7-ge7-po5 (presumably 無牙婆), used as a rather negative term to describe a toothless old woman.
BTW, I asked a Malay guy I know on the internet about some of the terms (including chiau* gE). This was the dialogue (slightly edited):
<Sim> Hi polar. 3 questions about Malay...
<Sim> 1. What is the difference between "katak" and "katak puru"?
<Sim> 2. What is the meaning of "jangkrik". Is it a cicada or a cricket?
<Sim> 3. There is a very large green banana in Malaysia, called in Hokkien "chiau~ gE" (elephant's tusk). It doesn't turn bright yellow when it's ripe, only slightly yellowish-green. It's main special feature is that it's very large (probably the largest of the species of bananas in Malaysia). What is it called in Malay?
<polar> 1. katak is generic ..katak puru is - toad
<polar> 2. jangkrik or cenkerik - cicada
<polar> 3. pisang tanduk - horns banana
Niuc: what word do you use for "toad" in Indonesia? Polar is interested to know too.
Regards,
Sim.