-u- and -i- in Hokkien

Mark Yong · Post by **Mark Yong** » Wed May 04, 2005 5:26 pm

A bit of a cryptic subject title, but I shall explain:

I have observed an inconsistency, especially among the Penang Hokkien speakers in the use of the -u- and -i- vowels. Examples include:

根本 ("in the first place...") - Some say "kǐn pûn", others say "kŭn pûn".
筋 (tendons) - Some say "kūn" other say "kīn".

I usually adopt -i-, to be consistent with the general Chiang Chew pronunciation prevalent in Penang, e.g. "gǐn háng" 銀行 for 'bank' (Amoy Hokkien speakers in Singapore say "gŭn háng").

I believe a similar topic has been explored before, in relation to -i vs -u endings for words like 去 and 猪. Again, the -i ending seems to predominate in Penang (following the Chiang Chew intonation), with the exception of 猪 and 汝 (Teochew influence creeping in?).

Andrew · Post by **Andrew** » Wed May 04, 2005 10:40 pm

I'm not whether or not you can say -i predominates. As you say, in many words Penang uses -u: e.g. 汝豬魚箸著, though in others it follows Chiangchiu. Perhaps someone could try to make a list to see which predominates.

Mark Yong · Post by **Mark Yong** » Thu May 05, 2005 3:33 am

Andrew wrote:I'm not whether or not you can say -i predominates. As you say, in many words Penang uses -u: e.g. 汝豬魚箸著, though in others it follows Chiangchiu. Perhaps someone could try to make a list to see which predominates.

Hi, Andrew,

Sorry, mistake on my part. -u predominates in Penang Hokkien, not -i, as per your examples quoted. Others include 思 and 斯. The common exceptions I know of (off the top of my head) with -i endings are 子 and 去. I read somewhere that in Chiang Chiu Hokkien, the class of words above are all unconditionally -u endings, no exceptions involving -i endings.

To correct what I said: In Penang Hokkien, it appears that the ending -u is more prevalent than -i, but the middle -i- is more prevalent than -u-.

Regards,
Mark

hong · Post by **hong** » Thu May 05, 2005 11:37 am

Mark,I don't agree you say amoy hokkien in Singapore.There are 900000 chuanchiu there.A member in here said some singaporeans do say gwn compare to xiamen gun and chiang-gin hang.
My friend from Muar did say gwn-hang.Modern chuanchiu in china-hui an and jingjiang/shishi did change to i and u in like xia/chiang last 50 years.
It is a fact chuanchiu vowel is too hard to learn.
As for u sound like fish and pig but not i (chiang)or ir(chuan).It could be there are some small town near xiamen did move in into North malaysia but moslyt it is just shift of vowel from lw become lu in chuanchiu.This is the same in Taiwan as well.

hong · Post by **hong** » Thu May 05, 2005 12:10 pm

Two more points,
I did hear a young singapore university student in Taiwanaese radio saying khw for go.So it is a prove chuanchiu vowel is not lost yet even for a young girl.She couldn't be learning it from taiwanese.
xiamen people who said lu,tu,are those living 近郊和遠郊compare to town area.

hong · Post by **hong** » Sat May 07, 2005 12:19 am

Mark,
I think I have to mention Prof.李如龍 story.南安in chuanchiu is the earliest minnan language.There are 1.4 m people living there now which is the largest in chuanchiu compare to second largest in chuanchiu city.
There are two sects within nanan,Prof.Li's father is smaller sect saying ti,li ,hi compare to Prof.Li's mother who is from larger nanan sect say lw,tw,hw.However nanan vocabulary is strictly chuanchiu.
Help is sio-kang compare to xiamen tau-kah-chhiu
and chiangchiu 扎氣
However, for minnan outside China , Yongchun and Anxi are the biggest.There are so poor ,they have to move out to taiwan/south east asia to make a living

Mark Yong · Post by **Mark Yong** » Sat May 07, 2005 4:21 am

Hi, Hong,

With so many variations in the words for "help", it seems to suggest that the Mandarin term bang1mang2 (帮忙) or even just 帮 is a late development, and that historically the word for "help" in Old Chinese was something(s) else.

I just watched a Cantonese movie recently (Chow Yun Fat's 縱橫四海 "Once A Thief"). Somewhere in the middle, Chow's character asks his adopted father (played by Kenneth Tsang Kong) to "tău yât tău ngōr" (? 一 ? 我). I immediately checked the Mandarin subtitles - it translated as "帮忙我", i.e. to help him. This strongly suggests that the Yue "tău" and Min "tâu" share the same Hanzi 本字.

At first, I thought it was 斗, but it does not look very likely. Do you know what it is? Or is it also of non-Han origin (Zhuang?)?

hong · Post by **hong** » Sat May 07, 2005 5:39 am

I think you must have been misheard from kau kau 救救。
tau7=逗﹐tau3=鬥﹐tau2 =斗 for xiamen /chiangchiu baidu only but not chuanchiu.
www.tmn.idv.tw/Taiwanese-2/jngz-3.html
I can't agree with the writer in here about sound of 逗.
anyway tau is just used a little bit wider in minnan compare to other chinese languages.
金瓶梅-與吳大郎買茶果請那兩邊鄰舍﹐都斗了分子來。
This is in nanjing language mainly. It means 斗出錢 in minnan。

Mark Yong · Post by **Mark Yong** » Sat May 07, 2005 7:04 am

Hi, Hong,

I am very sure I heard "tău" in the movie, not "kau". In fact, I also thought I misheard the word, so I backtracked that segment and re-played it - this time at higher volume. It was definitely "tău". Furthermore, Kenneth Tsang even replied Chow Yun Fat using the exact same word (he pronouced it even louder and clearer than Chow).

Stragely enough, I also heard the same word being pronounced in Hakka by a Penang Hakka chap. He said "teu" (high tone), in the context of "teu ngai zo" (help me with it".

hong · Post by **hong** » Sat May 07, 2005 8:13 am

Yes,hakka do have teu5 as help in my small hakka dict.As I have mentioned this hanzi is use in wu langauge-nanjing.It is not strange it is used in other dialects.