Hokkien dialect in Kelantan

Mark Yong · Post by **Mark Yong** » Sat May 07, 2005 4:48 am

One seldom-discussed segment of Hokkien speakers in Malaysia are the Kelantan Hokkienese. I have only ever had two encounters with native Kelantan Hokkien speakers, so my data pool is extremely limited.

However, based on my brief conversations with them, I found that (putting aside the much larger quantity of Malay/Thai loan words for the moment) the dialect is very similar to that of the North-Western Malaysian states (Perlis, Kedah, Penang and northern Perak up to Taiping), i.e. heavily Chiang Chew influenced. The two obvious clues are the dominance of the -u (e.g. 汝,魚,猪) and -ui endings instead of -ng (e.g. 飯). The only difference is that some mid tones in Penang Hokkien tend to be high tones in Kelantanese Hokkien, and high tones tend to become falling tones. Another thing is that l- beginnings tend to become n- (e.g. 人 lang5 becomes nang2 - note the change from rising tone to high flat tone, like in Teochew).

Are they of the same/similar origin?

PS. I am aware that many people believe lang5 should be 儂. I hope the readers will excuse my conviction that it is really the 俗字 for 人, per previous forum threads. I welcome rebuttals and new evidence.

hong · Post by **hong** » Sat May 07, 2005 5:05 am

Mark,
You didn't read the post I wrote for you.lu/tu/hu are for people living near xiamen city,it is not chiangchiu at all.There are hainan living there and trengganu where lang is nan compare to teochew nang.So they must have been misguided by them
The correct hanzi for lang is certainly this 農 for farmer.
It is complety different matter for minnan in Kelantan and Penang/taiping/kedah because there are mostly chiangchiu compare to us as chuanchiu.You can do a reseach to find out that 8 out 10 Penang minnan are chuanchiu plus jinmen and tongan which is also chuanchiu language.
There are chiangchiu moving into kelantan 400 years ago.

hong · Post by **hong** » Sat May 07, 2005 5:14 am

A man in tang dynasty recorded 農﹐人也﹐今江南喚人作農。It is a baidu.Be careful that modern shanghai language, nong 儂 is a joint words,it is not the same meaning as mentioned by 潘悟雲

Mark Yong · Post by **Mark Yong** » Sat May 07, 2005 5:18 am

Hi, Hong,

Thanks for pointing that out. Okay, I am a bit confused now. All this while, I had the impression that the features of Chiang Chew are -ui endings and lu/tu/hu. But if lu/tu/hu are actually Amoy features, then it looks like Penang Hokkien has actually evolved into a hybrid, rather than being classified as "predominantly Chiang Chew influenced".

8 out of 10 Penang Hokkiens are Chuan Chew... hmm, then I must have been really misguided by thinking they were predominantly Chiang Chew. I have a Penang Hokkien friend whose ancestors come from Lam Wah (南華). Not sure where that is, but they definitely do not use -ui endings and pronounce 八 as "pue", as compared to the usual Penang "pe". Of course, her family has already assimilated the Penang pronunciations - only her China relatives speak her sub-dialect now.

hong · Post by **hong** » Sat May 07, 2005 5:56 am

Mark,
You friend is like my grandfather from 泉州-南安 lam uann1( baidu).It is the earliest minnan langauge.Because it is earlier,安 is in baidu compare to wen du an1 of 安溪﹐惠安 is also in baidu uann1.
I just wrote a few hours ago nan an has two sects.
There are very few xiamen city people moving into malaysia because the population is too small.Badminton hero of malaysia in penang-Eddy Chong's grandfather 1850 was from outskirts of xiamen.
u vowel happen due to shifting of ir/w become u.Losing of 半翹舌音of marked vowel of chuanchiu.
You can't say Penang minnan/North malaysian are speaking chiangchiu language because chiangchiu vocabulary of north and south in china are completely missing.This is mentioned by Prof.Chiu of xiamen university.Only some sound is from chiangchiu and some people living in Penang Island do say it correctly rice as png,etc.
tau-kha-chiu is xiamen-you can hear it daily.cua is who in chiangchiu but you can't heard anyone using it.
Sim 's ancestor was from longhai but he doesn't say capoo for man but only ta poo.

hong · Post by **hong** » Sat May 07, 2005 6:27 am

mark,
I have to mention that in malaysia 3 minnan sects are the bigger group,namely yongchun,nanan ,anxi.I think about 400000 each.huian and jinjiang are second follow by tongan.
longhai of chiangchiu are no more than 200000.dehua of chuanchiu is the smallest.As for 石獅,I haven't seen one.In Sarawak,there are minnan chiangchiu from 詔安。Remember I did mention in hakka forum that there are southern chiangchiu hakka only like 陳水扁
South east asia has 6.5 millions chuanchiu as mentioned by web page from china.Only 800000 chiangchiu in South east asia from china's web page as well.
In kuala Lumpur,minnan in Jalan Ipoh and selayang are Huian 惠安 and anxi.Petaling Jaya are not local, like subang Jaya are from Penang.

hong · Post by **hong** » Sat May 07, 2005 6:30 am

I forget to mention 金門 for rich guy like YTL group 楊忠禮.Jinmen is a chuanchiu language.There is a jinmen.tongan,xiamen association in Penang as well.

Mark Yong · Post by **Mark Yong** » Sat May 07, 2005 6:53 am

hong wrote:Mark,
You friend is like my grandfather from 泉州-南安 lam uann1( baidu).It is the earliest minnan langauge.Because it is earlier,安 is in baidu compare to wen du an1 of 安溪﹐惠安 is also in baidu uann1.

Strange... when my friend's China uncle wrote out his address to us in Chinese, he definitely wrote the words 福建南華十五都, i.e. 南華. Mabe he got the word wrong.

hong · Post by **hong** » Sat May 07, 2005 7:57 am

Yes,he is surely wrong.In a death annoucement in nanyang,it was written as fujian 臨安 the guy is living in Ipoh as cantonese lam for this word.

hong · Post by **hong** » Sat May 07, 2005 8:49 am

I forgot to mention how many minnan in malaysia are chuanchiu city origin.There are death annoucements written just as fujian quanzhou.I know there is a rich guy (65 now)in Taiping is chuanchiu city origin .
Perhaps there are a lot of jobs for them a century ago,not many people are willing to move to SEA