Whatever the genetic origins of Penangites, it is to my mind without doubt that what we know today as Penang Hokkien is predominantly a Chiangchiu dialect of Hokkien. The lu/tu/hu difference is clearly not Chiangchiu, and a lot of the vocabulary and some of the pronunciation comes from Amoy, but to say that major features of Penang Hokkien come from Chuanchiu is farfetched.
The -u sound occurs in Tang-oa" and some of the villages on Amoy island itself, so it is unnecessary to derive it from Chuanchiu -y, which is a different sound. As far as I can tell there is very little Chuanchiu influence in Penang Hokkien. It is not pure Chiangchiu Hokkien, but what differences there are come from Amoy, not Chuanchiu.
Hokkien dialect in Kelantan
-
hong
Andrew,
The symbol y(start by niu in here)) is not correct for w , ir and two other correct symbol as well.It cannot be used because a prof told me one is at the back and another is in front of tongue.China use the y for minbei languages,etc.(I can't type the perfect symbol of w-like)
If a guy say w /ir just a little bit unclear(不夠翹舌),it can easily misheard as u .You can try it yourself.I have tried this to some people who said it is very close to u. Same case goes for er.It is so close to e .
You didn't study any free online thesis links given by me from Prof.Ang who clearly explained why xiamen has u sound in last 150 years.It is shift of vowel happen because w is too difficult.If the article is free,why you are no interested to read?元音向前/後移。。。。。。
I didn't say North or south malaysian minnan use a lot chuanchiu languages because the basic word like 說 is not been used but everone is using 講。As for why xiamen vocabulary is so popular in Filipina /malaysia even for chuanchiu people ,I did mention xiamen movie in 1950s play an important role.There are no movie making in chuan/chiang and dict is something foreign to common people.
I have read thesis on Tongan,there are not many people using u for ir but it was young people in huian /jinjiang who switch to u.
The symbol y(start by niu in here)) is not correct for w , ir and two other correct symbol as well.It cannot be used because a prof told me one is at the back and another is in front of tongue.China use the y for minbei languages,etc.(I can't type the perfect symbol of w-like)
If a guy say w /ir just a little bit unclear(不夠翹舌),it can easily misheard as u .You can try it yourself.I have tried this to some people who said it is very close to u. Same case goes for er.It is so close to e .
You didn't study any free online thesis links given by me from Prof.Ang who clearly explained why xiamen has u sound in last 150 years.It is shift of vowel happen because w is too difficult.If the article is free,why you are no interested to read?元音向前/後移。。。。。。
I didn't say North or south malaysian minnan use a lot chuanchiu languages because the basic word like 說 is not been used but everone is using 講。As for why xiamen vocabulary is so popular in Filipina /malaysia even for chuanchiu people ,I did mention xiamen movie in 1950s play an important role.There are no movie making in chuan/chiang and dict is something foreign to common people.
I have read thesis on Tongan,there are not many people using u for ir but it was young people in huian /jinjiang who switch to u.
-
hong
-
hong
mark,
You mention 南華十五都 which is almost the same with my grandfather 南安十八都﹐So clearly he is wrong.
Andrew,
Needless to say,every minnan of any sect including outskirts of xiamen has to start lesson about each style -vocabulary,grammar and tones if not the benzi .This is a big challenge not the issue of being pure or each individual away from China has to create new style as mentioned by Sim.Otherwise we shouldn't be wasting time here.<Everything just hantam,cukuplah!>
Here is a list of Prof.Chiu's xiamenfangyancidian
er is the same for outskirts and tongan 郭﹐飛﹐妹﹐月﹐雪﹐糜﹐ 皮。
w for tongan 豬,箸﹐去﹐魚 but u for outskirts.
However, there are too few outskirts xiamen moving in and no movie /drama speak lu,tu etc to make a impact for people to speak u.You can't expect Indonesia/malay to speak lw(you) as a borrowing word.
You mention 南華十五都 which is almost the same with my grandfather 南安十八都﹐So clearly he is wrong.
Andrew,
Needless to say,every minnan of any sect including outskirts of xiamen has to start lesson about each style -vocabulary,grammar and tones if not the benzi .This is a big challenge not the issue of being pure or each individual away from China has to create new style as mentioned by Sim.Otherwise we shouldn't be wasting time here.<Everything just hantam,cukuplah!>
Here is a list of Prof.Chiu's xiamenfangyancidian
er is the same for outskirts and tongan 郭﹐飛﹐妹﹐月﹐雪﹐糜﹐ 皮。
w for tongan 豬,箸﹐去﹐魚 but u for outskirts.
However, there are too few outskirts xiamen moving in and no movie /drama speak lu,tu etc to make a impact for people to speak u.You can't expect Indonesia/malay to speak lw(you) as a borrowing word.
Hi, Hong & Andrew,
Okay, just to summarise the above points so that we understand each other (if my interpretation of what you wrote is incorrect, please feel free to amend it):
Andrew: The -u endings in words like 豬, 汝 and 魚 that occur in Penang Hokkien appear to be Amoy influenced (rather than Chuan Chew influenced), resulting in a shift from what was originally -i endings in Chiang Chew.
Hong: On the contrary, the -u endings are not originally an Amoy feature. The Amoy endings for the above words were -w, but shifted to -u in the last century or so, due to difficulty in pronouncing the -w ending. The -u ending is influenced by other Min sub-dialects, one likely possibility being Tang-ua.
My interpretation of your conclusions. Please correct me if I mis-read.
According to 梅祖麟 Mei Zulin's 幾個閩語語法成份的時間層次 "The temporal strata of several components of the grammar of the Minnan dialect (March 1995), the Min dialect diverged from Middle Chinese since around A.D. 600, so the fact that it took more than 1,800 years for Amoy to lose the -w ending in favour of u- is something curious. Well, I suppose that is fair, since even modern Mandarin took until the 1600's to lose the -m in favour of -n.
Hong, perhaps one reason why Andrew (and others, including me
) have not yet read the links you have kindly provided (again, your sharing is appreciated) is because we tend to spontaneously share URL links here-and-there in our postings, and after a while we tend to lose track of all the hundreds of URL's we have accumulated in this really active Minnan forum (as you know, sometimes we tend to diverge very far from the original discussion topic, so searching by forum topic title also becomes a problem). One recommendation (just an idea) could be to have such useful URL's placed in a separate page on this website (you know how some websites have a dedicated webpage for "useful links/resources", separate from the forums?).
Okay, just to summarise the above points so that we understand each other (if my interpretation of what you wrote is incorrect, please feel free to amend it):
Andrew: The -u endings in words like 豬, 汝 and 魚 that occur in Penang Hokkien appear to be Amoy influenced (rather than Chuan Chew influenced), resulting in a shift from what was originally -i endings in Chiang Chew.
Hong: On the contrary, the -u endings are not originally an Amoy feature. The Amoy endings for the above words were -w, but shifted to -u in the last century or so, due to difficulty in pronouncing the -w ending. The -u ending is influenced by other Min sub-dialects, one likely possibility being Tang-ua.
My interpretation of your conclusions. Please correct me if I mis-read.
According to 梅祖麟 Mei Zulin's 幾個閩語語法成份的時間層次 "The temporal strata of several components of the grammar of the Minnan dialect (March 1995), the Min dialect diverged from Middle Chinese since around A.D. 600, so the fact that it took more than 1,800 years for Amoy to lose the -w ending in favour of u- is something curious. Well, I suppose that is fair, since even modern Mandarin took until the 1600's to lose the -m in favour of -n.
Hong, perhaps one reason why Andrew (and others, including me
) have not yet read the links you have kindly provided (again, your sharing is appreciated) is because we tend to spontaneously share URL links here-and-there in our postings, and after a while we tend to lose track of all the hundreds of URL's we have accumulated in this really active Minnan forum (as you know, sometimes we tend to diverge very far from the original discussion topic, so searching by forum topic title also becomes a problem). One recommendation (just an idea) could be to have such useful URL's placed in a separate page on this website (you know how some websites have a dedicated webpage for "useful links/resources", separate from the forums?).-
hong
Mark,
Tongan don't have u as I had given example above from prof.Chiu's dict.Andrew doesn't have this book but he was using only Douglas's book which mentioned Tongan has both u and w sound.
Many links I gave are gone now.So many webmaster took away thier links .Example a free hakka and minnan book from Taiwan which is not online any more.So there is no point having a separate section of links.It can be in one month time ,many links are gone.Also not many people are interested to read,as you can see Andrew doesn't interested to read free online articles by Prof.Ang about shifting of vowel.
About marked vowel of chuanchiu-er and ir,experts have no correct idea yet.The earliest minnan is in 南安。we don't know at that time 汝is really lw.Nobody knows about the actual fact.
Tongan don't have u as I had given example above from prof.Chiu's dict.Andrew doesn't have this book but he was using only Douglas's book which mentioned Tongan has both u and w sound.
Many links I gave are gone now.So many webmaster took away thier links .Example a free hakka and minnan book from Taiwan which is not online any more.So there is no point having a separate section of links.It can be in one month time ,many links are gone.Also not many people are interested to read,as you can see Andrew doesn't interested to read free online articles by Prof.Ang about shifting of vowel.
About marked vowel of chuanchiu-er and ir,experts have no correct idea yet.The earliest minnan is in 南安。we don't know at that time 汝is really lw.Nobody knows about the actual fact.
-
hong
I compare two books by Prof。周長楫 and Prof .李如龍。there are two chiangchiu sects in outskirts of xiamen namely 海凔 and 東孚formally under 龍海 of chiangchiu.In Prof.Li's book these two sects use lu for 汝。
These two sects are chiangchiu with 皮﹐飛-ue,糜妹-ainn,郭,月-ueh .
So we have two chiangchiu sects in outskirts of xiamen using u ending and also tongan-like sects like 禾山﹐灌口﹐後溪 saying u ending but at least they still have er ending like tongan and chuanchiu.
沈慕羽 wife's ancestor was from 禾山 above.
These two sects are chiangchiu with 皮﹐飛-ue,糜妹-ainn,郭,月-ueh .
So we have two chiangchiu sects in outskirts of xiamen using u ending and also tongan-like sects like 禾山﹐灌口﹐後溪 saying u ending but at least they still have er ending like tongan and chuanchiu.
沈慕羽 wife's ancestor was from 禾山 above.
-
hong
-
niuc
-
hong
Just to increase my point of chuanchiu people in South east asia and Taiwan don't use correct chuanchiu word.I add another important word.
Pretty is not sui but 女+畜=thek =chu in mandarin? (maybe Tongan/jinmen are not supposed to this word).Tongan/jinmen don't use 說 serh like chuanchiu.
It is in Kangxizidian from 集韻=媚也。
Pretty is not sui but 女+畜=thek =chu in mandarin? (maybe Tongan/jinmen are not supposed to this word).Tongan/jinmen don't use 說 serh like chuanchiu.
It is in Kangxizidian from 集韻=媚也。