Hokkien grammar

Andrew · Post by **Andrew** » Mon May 16, 2005 5:53 pm

Is the following sentence structure the same in other Hokkien dialects? Or is it the result of English influence?

English: A is bigger than B
Mandarin: A比B大
Penang Hokkien: A較大共B

hong · Post by **hong** » Mon May 16, 2005 11:55 pm

Andrew,
This had been explained by Prof.Ang in one of his articles. I had given the link last year.比is mandarin influence.It has nothing to do with english.The last one is correct but without 共 will be good enough。

hong · Post by **hong** » Tue May 17, 2005 4:01 am

Just to a bit out topic for andrew's question about Amoy long time ago.I check my fuzhou ditc It is a huh-cieu (fuzhou) way of calling xiamen---A muong=amoy
They call minnan as 下南 a nang.
fujian as huh kyong.
About Niu mentioning people in her home town saying 頭 thau become tha,I find this in fuzhou dict as well.頭頭 thau-thau become tha-thau.

Casey · Post by **Casey** » Tue May 17, 2005 4:29 am

Andrew
I do not think that it is influenced by English but in Penang Hokkien do you use "kha4....ka4" instead of "kha4....kue3" in its normal usage? To me "ka4 共 " seems more like "with" implying "equal" while "kue3, ke3 过 ”exudes the sense of "than, over".

I would say: A (kha4) tua7 ke3 (kue3) B, A (较) 大过 B , "kha4" (instead of ke3, kue3) may be omitted in normal conversation.

Hong
I may be wrong but the sentence "A kha4 tua7 B" does not sound right to me. It is clearer in another example using the adjective "sui2, beautiful". Please compare "A kha4 sui2 ge3 B" with "A kha4 sui2 B". The latter sounds incomplete. Don't you think so?

hong · Post by **hong** » Tue May 17, 2005 6:56 am

I also think andrew used the wrong hanzi which should be 過。
Casey,I think prof.Ang who is a chiangchiu speaking people 嘉義 in Taiwan just follow chiangchiu people in China。
Example from china‘s book
龍海 li tua han gua 汝大漢我
平和 li khah guan gua 汝較懸我
The rest do add 比 in front of 我。
However,jinjiang/shishi add 并 ping3 instead.
Is it correct to add 比/過﹖ I don't know.I have no chance to read no less than 300 minnan articles from China's yet.And we know that taiwanese scholars don't have correct idea about eact minnan sect.

hong · Post by **hong** » Tue May 17, 2005 7:23 am

about andrew mention of 共 kang become ka=把,對﹐跟﹐和﹐為 in mandarin。I think we north malaysians do use this word correctly even in joint word.
example from china's book
門共伊關起來--(共伊) joint become kai,we use this a lot.
However, another two 共我(kua)﹐共人(kang) seems never heard by me anywhere?The last word kang7 can be used for bully also never heard by me but it appears a lot in minnan story.

hong · Post by **hong** » Tue May 17, 2005 8:31 am

Is seems like 過 ke in minnan doesn't function as a meaning of comparig. It is a verb,adverb meaning all 過過﹐after verb like 看過﹐量詞 like 三過﹐
Is it a word we get the idea from cantonese grammar?

hong · Post by **hong** » Tue May 17, 2005 8:38 am

I forgot to add examples used by more sects from above meaning taller than me.
xiamen-li pi gua khah lo(khah=較)/tua han/guan for others.
lo is lio in chuanchiu.

niuc · Post by **niuc** » Tue May 17, 2005 4:00 pm

All forms below are valid in my Hokkien: (adj = adjective)
1. A 比 B 較 adj -> 伊比我較大 i1 pi2-gua2 kha4-tua7 (he is bigger/older than me)
2. A 比 B adj -> 伊比我大 i1 pi2-gua2 tua7
3. A 較 adj 過 B -> 伊較大過我 i1 kha4-tua7-ker3-gua2
4. A 較 adj B -> 伊較大我 i1 kha4-tua7 gua0 [0=neutral tone]
5. A adj 過 B -> 伊大過我 i1 tua7-ker3-gua2
6. A adj B adv -> 伊大我兩歲 i1 tua7-gua2 nng7-her3 (he is two years older than me)
7. A 加 adj B adv -> 伊加大我兩歲 i1 ke1-tua7-gua2 nng7-her3
8. A 加 B adj adv -> 伊加我大兩歲 i1 ke1-gua2 tua7-nng7-her3
Form 1 - 5 can have additional info (adverb?<-is this the correct term?). Form 6 - 8 usually have additional info (adv).

Casey, A kha4-sui2 B is acceptable in my dialect.

Hong, thanks for the info about Hokciu language. It's interesting to note that they pronounce 頭 as tha, as we sometimes do. Another interesting point is that we always pronounce 頭頭 as thau5-thau5, never tha5-thau5 or tha5-tha5. Btw, this Niu is a "he", not a "she".

hong · Post by **hong** » Tue May 17, 2005 11:46 pm

I need some prove from Taiwan and China about 过 or else I will think it is just wrong cantonese grammar for minnan.It sounds very bad for me in chuanchiu= ker when we say tua ker but not in the sense of verb 过了,etc.
We don't have to use it if it is wrong.
Prof.Chiu of Singapore did mention this is wrong mandarin for Singapore/malaysia in his book.Mandarin must use the the word 比。