More different Hokkien pronunciations across Malaysia

hong · Post by **hong** » Tue May 17, 2005 12:25 am

I can't remember where mark asked about hanzi for pain is thiann3.The hanzi is not 疼or 痛 .Prof.Lirulong doesn't know the correct hanzi but he thinks it could be the word from 集韻-heart radical on the left with 丁 on right.

Casey · Post by **Casey** » Tue May 17, 2005 5:05 am

In "Putonghua Minnan Fangyan Cidian" the Hanzi for "thia*3" was shown as " 忝 ", meaning "pain, 痛 ".

hong · Post by **hong** » Tue May 17, 2005 6:27 am

忝 couldn't be the benzi because it means insult as a verb and same as I/me 自称的谦居。The baidu of this sound is correct -thiann3

niuc · Post by **niuc** » Tue May 17, 2005 3:23 pm

Hi Hong & Casey

Thanks for the info about possible hanji for thia*3. Regardless which one is the correct one, thia*3 for pain and thia*3 for love is the same character, right? To love until it hurts, to love even though it hurts, to love and to share the pain/suffering..... a very profound concept.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Wed May 18, 2005 12:45 pm

niuc wrote:... thia*3 for pain and thia*3 for love is the same character, right? ...

Hi Niuc,

Gosh, your comment brought back many childhood memories! My maternal grandparents were non-Baba, and they always used this word "thia*3" for "love". I can still hear them saying to me as a 5-year-old boy: "gua1 cin7 thia*2 li2, a0 sim1!".

I have no idea if they are the same hanzi, but in some ways it makes sense. The word "dear" in English both means "precious, loved", as in "Dear Sim", and "expensive", as in "it's too dear!". And something being expensive can cause a lot pain too, when you have to spend the money to buy it

!

Us Babas (sorry Mark!) of course solved this problem by using "thia*3" only for "pain", and saying "sa3-yang1" for "love"

.

Regards,
Sim.

Mark Yong · Post by **Mark Yong** » Wed May 18, 2005 3:39 pm

hong wrote:I can't remember where mark asked about hanzi for pain is thiann3.The hanzi is not 疼or 痛 .Prof.Lirulong doesn't know the correct hanzi but he thinks it could be the word from 集韻-heart radical on the left with 丁 on right.

Hi, Hong,

Yep, I did ask that question. I looked up 康熙字典. The only definition it gives for 忊 (yes, I managed to type it out!) is 恨也 (to hate). A bit far off in meaning from "pain", don't you think? But then again, you did mention before that 康熙字典 must be read in conjunction with the other rhyming dictionaries when one is looking for the benzi for Minnan words.

I suspect why Prof. Li suggested 忊 is because of the -ing/-ia wendu/baidu relationship in Minnan, and this character seemed like a likely candidate. But I think we should try and hazard a more reasonable guess.

Regards,
Mark

hong · Post by **hong** » Thu May 19, 2005 12:18 am

Prof.Li was talking about the latter part 不得志貌，He did mention it as 古时为联绵字 .He didn't say he is right. 也许是痛字的韵母变化 Maybe northen people used it as hate but we use it as pain,it is possible.
You can't think that every hanzi is explained in old dict for every dialect. 蠓 is used in min languages for all kinds of mosquito but 說文解字段注 didn't bother mention that.
Instead of using just Kangxi dict thinking that every hanzi is inside here is completely wrong because 1915 中华大字典is bigger and better.1988 汉语大字典 is even better yet so many hanzi are still missing from these dict
However,I did mention the best is to buy all old yunshu and 训诂 books.For 说文解字alone,,there will be 100 volumes not including articles in magazine.
Out of print 说文解字诂林 is 17 volumes.
Every book in 小学部 from 四库全书/续四库全书 is a must.Qing period minnan dict are in here as well.
That will cost you at least 50000 renminbi

hong · Post by **hong** » Thu May 19, 2005 2:09 am

I don't have the best old chinese dict but 不得志貌=失志貌 seems is pain/not feeling well,sad.

Casey · Post by **Casey** » Thu May 19, 2005 5:55 am

Hong

No offense. May I ask how you arrived at the conclusion that "thia83" is not " 疼 ", nor " 痛 "， nor " 忝 ", by introducing the word " 丁 , 心旁 " which does not mean "pain" nor "love", but rather "the look of frustration" ( 不得志貌 ). I am just curious.

hong · Post by **hong** » Thu May 19, 2005 6:38 am

Casey,
I think I already explained in details and stress that Prof.Li didn't say he is perfectly right..痛has thong3 and thang3 .疼 has wendu of ting5/thing5 .Maybe 疼has a baidu thiann,I don't know.
忝 means 說文解字 -辱也 and (my) which don't fit in the meaning at all.They have to pick this because the baidu is perfectly match
I think you are asking a very simple question for the word frustration.When we are frustrated we are feeling painful in our heart.A guy who cannot strike Toto Jackpot 15 millions riggint this coming saturday,you expect him to feel happy?
frustration means painful and sad 痛心,that is no doubt about it. As for 痛惜thiann-sioh we can see it in 後漢書﹐疼惜 in 紅樓夢。I think it is the problem Prof.Li has for this word.
At least he has solved part of the problem.
If that is an qing period minnan dict come out with 疼 has a baidu of thiann,everything is solved.