I read that taiwanese never say like china for this 解=e
我解英文 gua e7 ing bun =I can speak english。
They say it like us- gua e hiau2(hiang2) ing bun
Normally we say e follow by verb like 解做 but not follow by a noun.
Hokkien grammar
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Sim
Andrew: Thanks for bringing up this topic. Comparatives are very interesting across languages.niuc wrote:All forms below are valid in my Hokkien: (adj = adjective)
1. A 比 B 較 adj -> 伊比我較大 i1 pi2-gua2 kha4-tua7 (he is bigger/older than me)
2. A 比 B adj -> 伊比我大 i1 pi2-gua2 tua7
3. A 較 adj 過 B -> 伊較大過我 i1 kha4-tua7-ker3-gua2
4. A 較 adj B -> 伊較大我 i1 kha4-tua7 gua0 [0=neutral tone]
5. A adj 過 B -> 伊大過我 i1 tua7-ker3-gua2
6. A adj B adv -> 伊大我兩歲 i1 tua7-gua2 nng7-her3 (he is two years older than me)
7. A 加 adj B adv -> 伊加大我兩歲 i1 ke1-tua7-gua2 nng7-her3
8. A 加 B adj adv -> 伊加我大兩歲 i1 ke1-gua2 tua7-nng7-her3
Niuc: Thank you for a BRILLIANT exposition of the possible forms
! A lot of them I recognise as being valid in my variant of Hokkien, although some - #7 and #8 - may not be ones I would actively use.Below is my usage. I give my own sandhi tones, which are slightly different from the standard. It is interesting to note that in #7, #8, the "kE1" can have sandhi or non-sandhi tone for me.
1. 伊比我較大 i1 pi2-gua2 kha1-tua7 (YES)
2. 伊比我大 i1 pi2-gua2 tua7 (NOT REALLY, the "kha1" feels "missing")
3. 伊較大過我 i1 kha1-tua7-ka1-gua2 (YES)
4. 伊較大我 i1 kha1-tua7 gua2 (YES, but no neutral tone, just standard gua2)
5. 伊大過我 i1 tua7-kue1-gua2 (YES, but #3 would be more common)
6. 伊大我兩歲 i1 tua7-gua2 nO7-hue3 (YES)
7. 伊加大我兩歲 i1 kE1/7-tua7-gua2 nO7-hue3 (MAYBE, but #6 more usual)
8. 伊加我大兩歲 i1 kE1/7-gua2 tua7-nO7-hue3 (MORE COMMON THAN 7, but #6 still more usual)
The only one that sounds downright "wrong" (this is NOT a criticism Niuc, just a comment about my own variant), is #2. But, this is precisely the form which Andrew created the topic about. It seems that in Penang Hokkien, this form is not used.
Regards,
Sim.
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Guest
Hi All,
I was involved for a short period in 2003 in private correspondence with a Hokkien fan. Unfortunately, I couldn't convince him to join the Forum. In one mail, he gave me 恰 as the hanzi for the comparative particle "kha" we have been talking about.
Related to the topic of comparatives is of course the topic of superlatives.
I asked this correspondent of mine what the hanzi was for the Hokkien superlative particle "te5" (sandhi form, because it always come before the adjective), e.g.: "te5 tua7" (biggest), "te5 gOng7" (most stupid).
To my surprise, he'd never heard of it! He told me that the normal way to express the superlative in Hokkien was 尚 "siang". Well, I was in turn surprised (well, actually shocked, to be honest!), because I had never heard of "siang" (he did not give a tone indication).
So, I asked my parents, and it turned out (as everybody here reading this probably already realises) that my so-called 'superlative particle' "te5" was actually an informally pronounced form of "te3 it4" (第一). So: "te3-it8 tua7" (literally, 'first big' = biggest) -> "te5 tua7". The -t disappears, and, somehow, the 3-tone and 8-tone combine to produce just a single syllable which sounds like it has 5-tone. [Thinking about this, it actually makes sense: the 3-tone is low, the 8-tone is high, so saying them in one syllable gives a rising tone, which sounds like 5-tone.]
Anyway, I thought I'd share with the readers of this Forum my misunderstanding of 40+ years that there is a 'superlative particle' "te5" in Hokkien! In a way, I was sorry to learn this... Before that, I used to think that Hokkien had a particle "kha", corresponding to English "-er", for comparatives; and another particle "te", corresponding to English "-est", for superlatives.
Sim.
I was involved for a short period in 2003 in private correspondence with a Hokkien fan. Unfortunately, I couldn't convince him to join the Forum. In one mail, he gave me 恰 as the hanzi for the comparative particle "kha" we have been talking about.
Related to the topic of comparatives is of course the topic of superlatives.
I asked this correspondent of mine what the hanzi was for the Hokkien superlative particle "te5" (sandhi form, because it always come before the adjective), e.g.: "te5 tua7" (biggest), "te5 gOng7" (most stupid).
To my surprise, he'd never heard of it! He told me that the normal way to express the superlative in Hokkien was 尚 "siang". Well, I was in turn surprised (well, actually shocked, to be honest!), because I had never heard of "siang" (he did not give a tone indication).
So, I asked my parents, and it turned out (as everybody here reading this probably already realises) that my so-called 'superlative particle' "te5" was actually an informally pronounced form of "te3 it4" (第一). So: "te3-it8 tua7" (literally, 'first big' = biggest) -> "te5 tua7". The -t disappears, and, somehow, the 3-tone and 8-tone combine to produce just a single syllable which sounds like it has 5-tone. [Thinking about this, it actually makes sense: the 3-tone is low, the 8-tone is high, so saying them in one syllable gives a rising tone, which sounds like 5-tone.]
Anyway, I thought I'd share with the readers of this Forum my misunderstanding of 40+ years that there is a 'superlative particle' "te5" in Hokkien! In a way, I was sorry to learn this... Before that, I used to think that Hokkien had a particle "kha", corresponding to English "-er", for comparatives; and another particle "te", corresponding to English "-est", for superlatives.
Sim.
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hong
Sim,
I don't think your friend know much about minnan as a taiwanese.siang is surely 上 for people you like as a chiangchiu while siong is for chuanchiu.Xiamen use both.It is from old chinese.尚 is rejected in better taiwanese dict
In Prof.Chiu xiamen dict,the 第一can become just it4 ,it sui,it ho2 一好。
as for it become te,I heard it from xiamen news from China,so it is not wrong.
恰 is wrong because it means only suitable and fit.But 較 means slightly which can be used for comparative
I don't think your friend know much about minnan as a taiwanese.siang is surely 上 for people you like as a chiangchiu while siong is for chuanchiu.Xiamen use both.It is from old chinese.尚 is rejected in better taiwanese dict
In Prof.Chiu xiamen dict,the 第一can become just it4 ,it sui,it ho2 一好。
as for it become te,I heard it from xiamen news from China,so it is not wrong.
恰 is wrong because it means only suitable and fit.But 較 means slightly which can be used for comparative
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Sim
Hi Hong,
Thanks for your information. It's nice to know that the same usage in Penang is also known in Xiamen!
My correspondent seemed quite knowledgable to me at the time. Please bear in mind that this correspondence with him was in (early) 2003. Perhaps he has been reading other linguistics texts (and this Forum) since that time, and has "upgraded" his knowledge too.
Regards,
Sim.
Thanks for your information. It's nice to know that the same usage in Penang is also known in Xiamen!
My correspondent seemed quite knowledgable to me at the time. Please bear in mind that this correspondence with him was in (early) 2003. Perhaps he has been reading other linguistics texts (and this Forum) since that time, and has "upgraded" his knowledge too.
Regards,
Sim.
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hong
It is not the case of not enough reading but Taiwanese are not interested to learn minnan properly following their ancestors.They like to speak word -door(mng) in xia/chuan but another word in chiangchiu,another in outskirts of xiamen.Learning minnan for them is about picking up whatever sound they like.
Perhaps by doing so,they can say they are not from china.
Also some prof in University give away wrong theory about chuanchiu language.They say that lu,hu are chuanchiu sound.I found at least 10 theses (master degree).saying this.
Perhaps by doing so,they can say they are not from china.
Also some prof in University give away wrong theory about chuanchiu language.They say that lu,hu are chuanchiu sound.I found at least 10 theses (master degree).saying this.
Hi, Sim,Sim wrote:...it turned out (as everybody here reading this probably already realises) that my so-called 'superlative particle' "te5" was actually an informally pronounced form of "te3 it4" (第一). So: "te3-it8 tua7" (literally, 'first big' = biggest) -> "te5 tua7". The -t disappears, and, somehow, the 3-tone and 8-tone combine to produce just a single syllable which sounds like it has 5-tone...
Interesting insight! For the longest time, I thought te3 was the baidu for 最 (you know how c/ch- beginnings in Mandarin/Yue often end up as t/th- beginnings in Hokkien). Later, I figured that was too simplistic a way of looking at it, so I figured 至 might be it. Even that was not convincing enough, so I gave up after a while.
Regards,
Mark
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hong
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hong