Sim,
Both are same hanzi 張。The vowel iaunn is only for a few words like cat and rat.Chiangchiu is ionn.xiamen/chuanchiu is iunn.
I don't care ionn or iunn is used by North Malaysian.At least using another vowel iaunn is too far from the correct version.If we use lu for you,at least we are not wrong because there are no less than 500000 people near xiamen are using it.
As a chiangchiu like you who have spent time and money to study minnan,it is not hard to speak ionn for words like above.
This is not harder than me who have to change a lot to speak chuanchiu.It is impossible unless I take a nan an girl in China as my wife.
Curious behaviour of "tua7" and "se3"
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niuc
Hi Sim
Thanks a lot for your sympathy and encouragement.
Hong is right that strictly speaking cia4 隻 may be not really related to any shape. Yet because it's the classifier for animals, and since most classifiers are related to shapes, I think it's helpful - as you mentioned - to think of cia4 as an animal shape.
I also usually say cit8-cia4-cun5 一隻船 (a ship) instead of cit8-ting2-cun5 一頂船, same for per1-ki1 飛機 (aeroplane). I don't know why but ting2 is still sound not bad if used for per1-ki1, but for cun5 it sounds unnatural to me [I'm not saying that it's wrong
]. For car, I say cit8-ting2-chia1 一頂車 (a car) and not cit8-cia4-chia1 一隻車. May be because chia1 車 is a common word for land vehicles and they don't look like animals.... as ship may be imagined as a fish and plane a bird.
It's true that beside tua7 大 and sue3 細, other "regarding shape/size" adjectives are rarer used with classifiers. Some examples of their possible usage:
i*5-liap8 圓粒 -> cit4-liap8-bi2-cin1-i*5-liap8 此粒米真圓粒 This grain of rice is very roundish.
tng5-liap8 長粒 -> cit4-liap8-bi2-cin1-tng5-liap8 此粒米真長粒 This grain of rice is very longish.
i*5-liap8-bi2 圓粒米 round grain rice, tng5-liap8-bi2 長粒米 long grain rice [-> just samples, not necessarily correct terms for rice types]
Usually adjectives that can be used with classifiers are also can be used without classifiers, though the connotation (extended meaning) may be different. E.g. i*5-liap8-bi2 圓粒米 and i*5-bi2 圓米 is the same i.e. round grain rice; tua7-king1-chu3 大間厝 and tua7-chu3 大厝 can have the same meaning i.e. big house but the latter can also mean "Big House" (which not always due to its size).
Sometimes colours can be used with classifier but the meaning may be different. E.g. ang5-bi2 紅米 = red rice, ang5-liap8-bi2 紅粒米 = red grain rice -> sound alike but the usage may be different; ng5-chiu7 黃樹 is yellow tree (just a sample, I don't know if there is such a tree) but ng5-ki1-chiu7 黃枝樹 tends to mean a tree with yellow branches -> well, ki1 is no more a classifier here
Btw - Sim & all friends here - what's your classifier(s) for chui3 嘴 mouth?
Thanks a lot for your sympathy and encouragement.
Hong is right that strictly speaking cia4 隻 may be not really related to any shape. Yet because it's the classifier for animals, and since most classifiers are related to shapes, I think it's helpful - as you mentioned - to think of cia4 as an animal shape.
I also usually say cit8-cia4-cun5 一隻船 (a ship) instead of cit8-ting2-cun5 一頂船, same for per1-ki1 飛機 (aeroplane). I don't know why but ting2 is still sound not bad if used for per1-ki1, but for cun5 it sounds unnatural to me [I'm not saying that it's wrong
]. For car, I say cit8-ting2-chia1 一頂車 (a car) and not cit8-cia4-chia1 一隻車. May be because chia1 車 is a common word for land vehicles and they don't look like animals.... as ship may be imagined as a fish and plane a bird.It's true that beside tua7 大 and sue3 細, other "regarding shape/size" adjectives are rarer used with classifiers. Some examples of their possible usage:
i*5-liap8 圓粒 -> cit4-liap8-bi2-cin1-i*5-liap8 此粒米真圓粒 This grain of rice is very roundish.
tng5-liap8 長粒 -> cit4-liap8-bi2-cin1-tng5-liap8 此粒米真長粒 This grain of rice is very longish.
i*5-liap8-bi2 圓粒米 round grain rice, tng5-liap8-bi2 長粒米 long grain rice [-> just samples, not necessarily correct terms for rice types]
Usually adjectives that can be used with classifiers are also can be used without classifiers, though the connotation (extended meaning) may be different. E.g. i*5-liap8-bi2 圓粒米 and i*5-bi2 圓米 is the same i.e. round grain rice; tua7-king1-chu3 大間厝 and tua7-chu3 大厝 can have the same meaning i.e. big house but the latter can also mean "Big House" (which not always due to its size).
Sometimes colours can be used with classifier but the meaning may be different. E.g. ang5-bi2 紅米 = red rice, ang5-liap8-bi2 紅粒米 = red grain rice -> sound alike but the usage may be different; ng5-chiu7 黃樹 is yellow tree (just a sample, I don't know if there is such a tree) but ng5-ki1-chiu7 黃枝樹 tends to mean a tree with yellow branches -> well, ki1 is no more a classifier here
Btw - Sim & all friends here - what's your classifier(s) for chui3 嘴 mouth?
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hong
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Casey
The classifier for 嘴 :
In Mandarin, 一 张 嘴 （literally, one sheet of mouth)
In Minnan,
1. 一 个 嘴 (cit8 e5/le5 chui3, lit., one piece of mouth), and
2. 一 支 嘴 (cit8 ki1 chui3, lit., one stick of mouth), this is used more often in a derogative way; e.g.,
"He likes to talk, that mouth of his can never stop talking",
"i1 cin1 ai3 kong2 ue7, i1 hit4/hik4/hih4 ki1 cui3 kong2 ue7 kong2 bue7 thing5".
This is to say that the mouth is like a (non-stop blowing) trumpet of which the classifier is "ki1".
嘴 chui3 itself may be used as a classifier, e.g., 吃 一 嘴 ( 口 ) 饭 “cia8 cit8 chui3 png7", 饮 一 嘴 ( 口 ) 水 "lim1 cit8 chui3 cui2".
In Mandarin, 一 张 嘴 （literally, one sheet of mouth)
In Minnan,
1. 一 个 嘴 (cit8 e5/le5 chui3, lit., one piece of mouth), and
2. 一 支 嘴 (cit8 ki1 chui3, lit., one stick of mouth), this is used more often in a derogative way; e.g.,
"He likes to talk, that mouth of his can never stop talking",
"i1 cin1 ai3 kong2 ue7, i1 hit4/hik4/hih4 ki1 cui3 kong2 ue7 kong2 bue7 thing5".
This is to say that the mouth is like a (non-stop blowing) trumpet of which the classifier is "ki1".
嘴 chui3 itself may be used as a classifier, e.g., 吃 一 嘴 ( 口 ) 饭 “cia8 cit8 chui3 png7", 饮 一 嘴 ( 口 ) 水 "lim1 cit8 chui3 cui2".
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Sim
Niuc:
Thanks for your very well thought-out explanation of the use of adjectives in front of classifiers. I particularly liked your examples of "round" and "long" for rice.
.
As you and Hong point out, sometimes the adjective + the noun already exists as a combination. When you wrote about 大厝, I was reminded that this is the term used for the paper house burned during the "Kong Tek" ceremony after the death of a person. Is that the meaning you were thinking of when you wrote "Big House" with initial capitals, Niuc?
>> what's your classifier(s) for chui3 嘴 mouth?
For mouths I use only the general classifier "(l)e5", not a specific one.
Casey:
Thanks for your very interesting contribution of "cit8 ki1 chui3", with the image of someone's mouth being a trumpet. Great
.
When reading Niuc's question, I thought exactly the same thing as you, that "chui3" itself can be used as a classifier. Amusingly enough I even thought of almost exactly the same example sentence as you: "i1 ciah8 cit7 chui3/2 pui*7, lim1 cit3 chui3/2 cui2" (he alternated between eating a mouthful of rice and drinking a mouthful of water)!
Two points crossed my mind in this example:
1. Here "chui3" is functioning more like the "amount" classifiers, than the "real" classifiers. What I mean is that (as we all know), containers etc can also behave like classifiers in Chinese "cit7 ua*2 pui*7" (a bowl of rice), "cit7 au1 cui2" (a glass of water). They do this when they specify a certain amount of (what in English would be called) an uncountable noun, like rice or water etc.
2. Penang Hokkien (I've mentioned this before) seems to apply tone-sandhi less often (or in any case, more optionally). In the above example, both "cit7 chui2 pui*7" (with sandhi) and "cit7 chui3 pui*7" (without sandhi) sound ok to me. Similarly, both "cit7 au7 cui2" (with) and "cit7 au1 cui2" (without) sound ok to me. [Again, this could be my limited mastery of Hokkien. Mark and Andrew, might you be able to confirm or deny this perception of mine about Penang Hokkien?]
Cheers,
Sim.
Thanks for your very well thought-out explanation of the use of adjectives in front of classifiers. I particularly liked your examples of "round" and "long" for rice.
.As you and Hong point out, sometimes the adjective + the noun already exists as a combination. When you wrote about 大厝, I was reminded that this is the term used for the paper house burned during the "Kong Tek" ceremony after the death of a person. Is that the meaning you were thinking of when you wrote "Big House" with initial capitals, Niuc?
>> what's your classifier(s) for chui3 嘴 mouth?
For mouths I use only the general classifier "(l)e5", not a specific one.
Casey:
Thanks for your very interesting contribution of "cit8 ki1 chui3", with the image of someone's mouth being a trumpet. Great
.When reading Niuc's question, I thought exactly the same thing as you, that "chui3" itself can be used as a classifier. Amusingly enough I even thought of almost exactly the same example sentence as you: "i1 ciah8 cit7 chui3/2 pui*7, lim1 cit3 chui3/2 cui2" (he alternated between eating a mouthful of rice and drinking a mouthful of water)!
Two points crossed my mind in this example:
1. Here "chui3" is functioning more like the "amount" classifiers, than the "real" classifiers. What I mean is that (as we all know), containers etc can also behave like classifiers in Chinese "cit7 ua*2 pui*7" (a bowl of rice), "cit7 au1 cui2" (a glass of water). They do this when they specify a certain amount of (what in English would be called) an uncountable noun, like rice or water etc.
2. Penang Hokkien (I've mentioned this before) seems to apply tone-sandhi less often (or in any case, more optionally). In the above example, both "cit7 chui2 pui*7" (with sandhi) and "cit7 chui3 pui*7" (without sandhi) sound ok to me. Similarly, both "cit7 au7 cui2" (with) and "cit7 au1 cui2" (without) sound ok to me. [Again, this could be my limited mastery of Hokkien. Mark and Andrew, might you be able to confirm or deny this perception of mine about Penang Hokkien?]
Cheers,
Sim.
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someone
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niuc
Hong & Casey, thanks a lot for the elaborate samples on classifier for chui3 嘴/喙 "mouth". 
We also generally use e5 (often become le5 after cit8 - as pointed out by Casey & Sim) for normal usage and ki1 枝 for derogatory remarks. I asked the question because I suddenly though of chui3 while writing about ki1. And same as Casey, I was thinking that the usage of ki1 for chui3 was to point out that the mouth was like a non-stop blowing trumpet 
, such as in i1 hit4-ki1-chui3 si3-kue3-pun5 伊彼枝嘴四界噴 his mouth is blowing (bad news / rumors) everywhere.
Sim, I was thinking of a house in my hometown (Bagansiapiapi) that everyone referred as tua7-chu3 大厝 "Big House". It belonged to a rich family and was made of concrete while other houses were of woods. So even its size was not bigger than others, it was a tua7-chu3. When I knew of its existence, it had been deserted due to reasons I didn't know. Yet people still called it tua3-chu3.
I don't know what's the term in my hometown for paper house burned during the Kong1-Tik4 公德 ceremony. The one I know is the paper palace burned for Thi*1-Kong1 (Jade Emperor) which is called thi*1-kong1-tan5 天公亭.
Hong, I know that tin1 is from English "tin" but somehow we usually (not always) use tin1 for medium size containers - usually more squarish and made of sia4 錫 (i.e. tinplate) and called sia4-tin1. We usually (not always) use kuan3 罐 for smaller containers and thang2 桶 for those bigger than tin1.
We also generally use e5 (often become le5 after cit8 - as pointed out by Casey & Sim) for normal usage and ki1 枝 for derogatory remarks. I asked the question because I suddenly though of chui3 while writing about ki1. And same as Casey, I was thinking that the usage of ki1 for chui3 was to point out that the mouth was like a non-stop blowing trumpet , such as in i1 hit4-ki1-chui3 si3-kue3-pun5 伊彼枝嘴四界噴 his mouth is blowing (bad news / rumors) everywhere.Sim, I was thinking of a house in my hometown (Bagansiapiapi) that everyone referred as tua7-chu3 大厝 "Big House". It belonged to a rich family and was made of concrete while other houses were of woods. So even its size was not bigger than others, it was a tua7-chu3. When I knew of its existence, it had been deserted due to reasons I didn't know. Yet people still called it tua3-chu3.
I don't know what's the term in my hometown for paper house burned during the Kong1-Tik4 公德 ceremony. The one I know is the paper palace burned for Thi*1-Kong1 (Jade Emperor) which is called thi*1-kong1-tan5 天公亭.
Hong, I know that tin1 is from English "tin" but somehow we usually (not always) use tin1 for medium size containers - usually more squarish and made of sia4 錫 (i.e. tinplate) and called sia4-tin1. We usually (not always) use kuan3 罐 for smaller containers and thang2 桶 for those bigger than tin1.
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hong
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Andrew
Sim, I think when and whether sandhi forms are used in particular phrases varies a lot from dialect to dialect of Minnan. One thing that Penang tends not to do is use 0 tones, instead giving all words their full tones, which results in a 'sing-song' effect. E.g. my KL great-aunt says kia*1 si0 lang0 whereas in Penang we would say kia*1 si2 lang5
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niuc
Andrew, I also noticed that Medan Hokkien (identical to Penang Hokkien) didn't use neutral tone e.g. 舉來 gia8 lai0 "bring it here" = gia8-lai5.
驚死人 can be kia*1-si2-lang5 or kia*1 si0 lang0 in my dialect, depends on context. kia*1-si2-lang5 is more common and usually mean "very dirty (hence scare people to death)". kia*1 si0 lang0 retains its original meaning and usually spoken out of surprise.
驚死人 can be kia*1-si2-lang5 or kia*1 si0 lang0 in my dialect, depends on context. kia*1-si2-lang5 is more common and usually mean "very dirty (hence scare people to death)". kia*1 si0 lang0 retains its original meaning and usually spoken out of surprise.