Connection between Min and "mainstream Chinese"?

[Mark Yong]

I didn't say benzi for drink is kou 口+林 because the meaning is stupid and slow.We just borrow the hanzi although the meaning doesn't right.That is why minnan dict in 1800 gives another word.

Thanks, Hong. Remind me again - what are the Hanzi for 'chiak' (eat) and 'lim' (drink)? One dictionary I read has 呷 for 'chiak', which I cannot agree to - the reason being beginning consonant 甲-sounding words is k- in all Southern dialects, and only Mandarin uses ch-/j-.

[Mark Yong]

Min languages are a bit ancient in term of vowel/consonant like no f consonant but as for vocabulary/grammar,every dialect in China is as old as well.We can find words from 詩經 in every chinese dialect .

I suppose that means the 詩經 period of the Chinese language would be a good 'reference point' from which to measure the degree of divergence for the dialects. The 詩經 would contain words which, among the various dialects today, there would be as many 'strange' words from one dialect's standpoint as any other?

I just read some Japanese texts on the box of tea today - the words 最高 were used (probably in relation to the grade of tea employed, I'm not sure). This is interesting to note that even in Japanese, the words 最高 are used for "highest" as in other Chinese dialects - whereas in Minnan, the words used are "tē kuán" - which is not 最高 but some other Hanzi. Of course, when reading and writing Minnan, 最高 would most likely be used, but in regular spoken form, we would not use the wendu "cui ko" unless it is in a formal context (e.g. cui ko keng kai 最高 竟 界, right?

[Mark Yong]

Min languages are a bit ancient in term of vowel/consonant like no f consonant but as for vocabulary/grammar,every dialect in China is as old as well.We can find words from 詩經 in every chinese dialect .

I suppose that means the 詩經 period of the Chinese language would be a good 'reference point' from which to measure the degree of divergence for the dialects. The 詩經 would contain words which, among the various dialects today, there would be as many 'strange' words from one dialect's standpoint as any other?

I just read some Japanese texts on the box of tea today - the words 最高 were used (probably in relation to the grade of tea employed, I'm not sure). This is interesting to note that even in Japanese, the words 最高 are used for "highest" as in other Chinese dialects - whereas in Minnan, the words used are "tē kuán" - which is not 最高 but some other Hanzi. Of course, when reading and writing Minnan, 最高 would most likely be used, but in regular spoken form, we would not use the wendu "cui ko" unless it is in a formal context (e.g. cui ko keng kai 最高竟界??), right?

[hong]

I cannot confirm the benzi for drink because I can't find other dict recorded it--- wine radical +欠 。If I have 中華字海 1994 which has 80000 words,maybe I can find the meaning of this word.
呷 is hap4 means drink .食 ciah8 is a verb started in 上古 period.I don't know how to explain the 反切。戰國策-長鋏歸來乎﹐無魚食。
we can say 食酒 ﹐ even putonghua say 吃喜酒。
紅樓夢--﹐並不介意﹐ 仍是吃酒談笑。
I mention 詩經 because we don't have many materials to study in shanggu chinese compare to zhonggu chinese.It is also the only one with a lot of chinese dialects compare to other books at the same period.
I think we should use 上 siong/siang for superlative most of the time.Or with kai3 介added.I only heard 第一 joint together as te twice in xiamen news.
上水 siong sui most pretty.最is for reading of news and old text.
上毛 =至少﹐上大=最大etc..

[hong]

interesting word 食食 ciah8-sit8 means 日常飯食

[Mark Yong]

interesting word 食食 ciah8-sit8 means 日常飯食

Hong, this is an interesting example you have provided. In the China video series 八千里路雲和月 that I mentioned in a previosu thread, the section on the Teochews has a section on the Teochew tea culture where one of the locals uses the phrase 'hang si ting tia*' 行事定定 (this is from a poem on the tea ceremony).Note the similiarity to your example, where the word appears as pair - one in wendu, the other in baidu.

So, 'ciah8' really is 食? Finally... one common word where the benzi is the same as the mainstream! By the way, I read somewhere that 'bah8' (meat) is not 肉, but 脉. Phonetically, I guess that makes sense (my guess is that should 肉 be 'jiok' or something?), but 脉 is really far off in meaning. Or is 'bah8' the baidu or 谷讀 for 肉?

[Mark Yong]

I mention 詩經 because we don't have many materials to study in shanggu chinese compare to zhonggu chinese.It is also the only one with a lot of chinese dialects compare to other books at the same period.

Hi, Hong,

Since 詩經 is a rather long text, I know this may be a bit too much to ask... but could you quote some examples of 'strange words' in 詩經 that are now part of the common Minnan vocabulary? Just to feed my interests on Minnan being a part of the 'many dialects, one unifying script'. Thanks.

Mark

[Mark Yong]

strange putian words 廚公=廚師

'cau k'a' (kitchen) in Hokkien... is the 'cau' 廚?

[Mark Yong]

Another example prompting my interest in tracing the point(s) in which Minnan diverged from 上古 / 中古 is the word 是 (yes). As far as I know, during the 詩經 period, 是 meant 'this', and that its use as the word 'yes' is a very late development in 北方話. If Minnan diverged more or less during the 詩經 period, isn't it likely that it would have carried this peculiarity?

[hong]

I don't know what is the benzi for bak . It could be a 壯語。kitchen is 灶間﹐灶骹。You will hear radio use tu5pang5 廚房。I can't explain how they get the sound for 食 ciah because they use some 韻/攝to get the sound.
啖 tam7 can be used in minnan as a verb-eat .吃或給別人吃。
In minnan we have special word for saying yes,just that people outside china don't know about it.
諾 =表示同意的應答聲 。In 史記 --項羽本紀 。。。沛公曰 [諾] ---劉邦reply yes
xia -henn,chiang-hioh8 ,chuan nanan -hiauh8 ,etc.