Sim-mih / Sia*-mih

Andrew · Post by **Andrew** » Fri Jun 24, 2005 2:00 pm

I wonder what the origin of Mandarin shen-me is, and whether it is mere coincidence that it is so close to Hokkien sim-mih/sia*-mih/sa*-mih, the second word of which is usually written 物.

hong · Post by **hong** » Sat Jun 25, 2005 12:49 am

In Prof.Lirulong's book called 代詞 has good answer.He says 啥=是和物﹐是物演變而來。It is a theory by 呂叔湘
However we can find taiwanese dict put 甚 has a sound sim7 ,no problem for it but not the 什=sip8 and cap8.
some chuanchiu sects siann-minnh is 是何物 joint together.
chiangchiu 貨=物 is 同義替換。哪貨是從啥貨音變而成的。
He didn't explain sann-minnh in longhai and sann in changtai .
I think ann in longhai is the origin for malaysian to say hann-minnh or ha-minnh.Some just imagine we can add minnh at the back.

hong · Post by **hong** » Sat Jun 25, 2005 4:51 am

是何物=si+a+m=siam minnh .何baidu is ua(we take only a).m is assimilation of m at the back.是物-si+m from the back minnh.I think 甚sim7 is perfect here.
There is a word nannh=若 =為什麼 in chuanchiu/xiamen
chiangchiu is an-nannh
I don't have 呂淑湘文集to check how he explains 甚麼的語源。
甚=what is in old chinese and modern dialect without 麼added..
甚人=甚麼人 in 五代史。

Andrew · Post by **Andrew** » Sat Jun 25, 2005 9:04 pm

Thanks hong!

hong · Post by **hong** » Wed Jun 29, 2005 5:24 am

I still have no idea what is the hanzi for sann but taiwanese do say 創chhong3-sann and chhong3-ann .
maybe it is a minnan sound for 啥?

niuc · Post by **niuc** » Fri Jul 01, 2005 2:29 am

Hi Hong

We also say chong3-sa*5 [even before we had access to Taiwanese TVs]. In Tang5-ua*1 Hokkien, in some contexts, '-iang'/'-ia*' is pronounced as '-ang'/'-a*' e.g. siang5 (who) -> sang5, siang1 (pair) -> sang1, siang5 (alike) -> sang5, 'sia*5' (what/who) -> 'sa*5'.

So chong3-sa*5 is chong3-sia*5. We understand and sometimes also pronounce it as chong3-sia*5. If we pronounce it fast, it become 'chong3-a*5' [-> usually by young people].

hong · Post by **hong** » Fri Jul 01, 2005 5:49 am

After look into Prof.Li's book again I think I know the answer.是何物=siann- minnh ,Prof.Li said the nn can be influenced from m at the back as well besides another siam-minnh with m due to m at the back.
So in 是 we just take s only follow by 何 a only (ua baidu),it becomes sann due to nn from minnh at the back.Later it becomes sann only in 長泰 sect and s is dropped = ann in longhai.It has nothing to do with 啥。
Why Prof.Li say sim-minnh is 是物﹖It is because of in Tang and Song period,there are a lot of books written as 是物=甚物﹐also 是誰which appeared in xiamen.是with a baidu cit.

hong · Post by **hong** » Fri Jul 01, 2005 5:54 am

Just for our interest ,there is a sect in wu languages with what= 哈麼 ha-meh,a bit like malaysian minnan

hong · Post by **hong** » Fri Jul 01, 2005 8:19 am

who-siang and sang is not about chuan or chiang but just the contraction choice.是何農 -si ho lang -siang,siong,sang.
sang is s+ang with the ho is missing out.
siang also without ho si+ang
siong in chuanchiu city is si+o+ng.Normally it is with siong-a 仔 becomes siong nga

hong · Post by **hong** » Sat Jul 02, 2005 1:06 am

cuanciu 怎麼做 is ciunn3 只樣 (樣baidu iunn)
lua7 or 6 in cuanciu 多少 is not 若 but contraction of 若夥。 ua is baidu for 夥
Malaysians always say 做麼 in mandarin follow cantonese /minnan style?Actually in Tang period,this is correct grammar.祖堂集 has 作摩﹐作摩生。
In ming period minnan books,it is written as 做乜=怎麼。
卜做乜=要干甚麼