tantg,
>kao 遘 - can't see why it's 遘, which means "to meet". I think it's like 到, but can't find the Hokkien word.
>eh 奚,兮 - it's not 奚 and not used for emphasis in the Salesgirl's words. It's a possesive like the Mandarin 的, or Cantonese 嘅, as in 我的,紅色的.
>Tng-lang 唐農 - Chinese farmer? No. How about 唐郎.
>Ang-mor 紅魔 - I prefer 紅毛. Since this joke came from Singapore, 紅毛 means a white person, not just Dutch.
Some experts all said the character "kao 遘", is the original Hokkian word, and the character "到" is just a borrow-meaning (訓讀字 hun-thak-ji) Hokkian word.
These two characters "--eh 奚" and "e 兮" are the function words. The "--eh 奚" is pronounced at a low and short voice, and the "e 兮" is high and long voice. In those Classic Chinese had these function words. The character "的 to" in Mandarin, is pronounced "的 tek" in Hokkian. The character "嘅 ke" in Cantonese, is pronounced "嘅 ke" in Hokkian. The function word (character) usually borrowed a similar sound from a next word (character), Which only provided a similar sound and as a "syllabogram".
Although these function words "--eh 奚", "e 兮", "的 to / tek", "嘅 ke / ke" have the same function in a sentence. But, the Hokkian, Cantonese and Mandarin are the different speaking, as the word "的" pronounce "tek" in Hokkian, not "--eh" or "e". When Hokkian, Cantonese and Mandarin developed their own writing system, they should select the suitable Chinese character to mean their own function words.
The character "的 to" is the function words of Mandarin writing.
The character "嘅 ke" is the function words of Cantonese writing.
The characters "--eh 奚" and "e 兮" are the function words of Hokkian writing.
農 (lang/long): peh-thak-im; lang / bun-thak-im; long In ancient time, 農 lang (farmer) was the main group of a state, they were the citizins and had a field. In Hokkian language that preserve the meaning of ancient society, so we call the people 農 lang (famer).
In the Hokkian words, there has a word Peh-mor 白魔 to mean French. If Ang-mor 紅毛 (Dutch) is mean "red hair", then Peh-mor 白毛 (French) will mean "white hair". The French are not the people with white hair, unless those old persons. I prefer Ang-mor 紅魔 Dutch (mean the red alien), Peh-mor 白魔 French (mean the white alien), because they used the colour to mean these two nations, as the Chinese people used white, yellow, red, black to mean some branchs of a nation or a race. This joke Ang-mor 紅魔 were also speaking in southern Hokkian, Taiwan and the Philippines. In their speaking Ang-mor 紅魔 just means the Dutch only. But in the Singapore and Malaysia Ang-mor 紅魔 could be mean 1. the Dutch 2. the white person.
SL
Ang-Mor Knee
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Andrew
I find it hard to believe that the possessive particle can sound so similar in all the southern Chinese languages, but they all use different characters.
I think the correct character is 個, whether it is Cantonese, Minnan, Wu or Hakka. I have no problem with using this for both the possessive particle and as a quantifier, as the pronunciation of both particles is the same in Hakka, Minnan and possibly Wu. Hence:
三個先生 = saN e sin sEN / sam ke sin sang
我個先生 = goa e sin sEN / ngai ke sin sang
In Minnan the particles can be pronounced ge, e or le. In Wu I believe the possessive particle can be pronounced ge or e and the quantifier ge, ga or ngie.
I think the correct character is 個, whether it is Cantonese, Minnan, Wu or Hakka. I have no problem with using this for both the possessive particle and as a quantifier, as the pronunciation of both particles is the same in Hakka, Minnan and possibly Wu. Hence:
三個先生 = saN e sin sEN / sam ke sin sang
我個先生 = goa e sin sEN / ngai ke sin sang
In Minnan the particles can be pronounced ge, e or le. In Wu I believe the possessive particle can be pronounced ge or e and the quantifier ge, ga or ngie.
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hong
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hong
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Guest
Hokkian: 個: peh-thak-im; kou / bun-thak-im; ko
Hokkian: chit-kou lang = 禃個 儂 (one person); chit-ko geh = 禃個 月 (one month)
Mandarin: ih-ko len 一個 人; ih-ko ie 一個 月
Cantonese: iah-kou ian 一個 人; iat-kou yit 一個 月
The 個 (kou / ko; in Hokkian) pronounce as "kou" in Cantonese that is similar as the colloquial reading of Hokkian speaking.
The 個 (kou / ko; in Hokkian) pronounce as "ko" in Mandarin that is similar as the literary reading of Hokkian speaking.
Choan-chiu style: 三 嘅 先生 = saN ke sin-sEN; 我 嘅 先生 = goa ke sin-sEN (there may be some counties of Choan-chiu apply "e".)
Chiang-chiu style: 三 le 先生 = saN le sin-sEN; 我 le 先生 = goa le sin-sEN (the "le" may be a Chiang-chiu style)
E-mng style: 三 兮 先生 = saN e sin-sEN; 我 兮 先生 = goa e sin-sEN
Hakka: 三 嘅 先生 = sam ke sin-sang; 我 嘅 先生 = ngai ke sin-sang
Cantonese: 三 嘅 先生 = sam ke sin-sang; 我 嘅 先生 = ngou ke sin-sang
Mandarin: 三 個 先生 = san ko sian-seng; 我 的 先生 = guo to sian-seng
These "ke", "e", and "eh" all could see in the Classic Chinese. I guess that the "ke" is the original sound, because this "ke" is also existing in the Tibetan language.
SL
Hokkian: chit-kou lang = 禃個 儂 (one person); chit-ko geh = 禃個 月 (one month)
Mandarin: ih-ko len 一個 人; ih-ko ie 一個 月
Cantonese: iah-kou ian 一個 人; iat-kou yit 一個 月
The 個 (kou / ko; in Hokkian) pronounce as "kou" in Cantonese that is similar as the colloquial reading of Hokkian speaking.
The 個 (kou / ko; in Hokkian) pronounce as "ko" in Mandarin that is similar as the literary reading of Hokkian speaking.
Choan-chiu style: 三 嘅 先生 = saN ke sin-sEN; 我 嘅 先生 = goa ke sin-sEN (there may be some counties of Choan-chiu apply "e".)
Chiang-chiu style: 三 le 先生 = saN le sin-sEN; 我 le 先生 = goa le sin-sEN (the "le" may be a Chiang-chiu style)
E-mng style: 三 兮 先生 = saN e sin-sEN; 我 兮 先生 = goa e sin-sEN
Hakka: 三 嘅 先生 = sam ke sin-sang; 我 嘅 先生 = ngai ke sin-sang
Cantonese: 三 嘅 先生 = sam ke sin-sang; 我 嘅 先生 = ngou ke sin-sang
Mandarin: 三 個 先生 = san ko sian-seng; 我 的 先生 = guo to sian-seng
These "ke", "e", and "eh" all could see in the Classic Chinese. I guess that the "ke" is the original sound, because this "ke" is also existing in the Tibetan language.
SL
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Guest
> I still have no idea about "e" as 量詞
Although the character "兮 e" as a quantifier could not see in those Classic Chinese of Literature Chinese. But we need to know a knowledge that the "Hokkian (Chinese character) writing system" (or Mandarin (Chinese character), Cantonese (Chinese character), Hakka (Chinese character) etc.) is a "Logo-syllabic writing system", the "function word" in this kind of writing system usually select a character (function word) from those similar sound of a next character to express the syllable of a "function word".
As the examples of "ke", "le" and "e". The "ke" may be the original word, and "le", "e" are the local style, we should write the "ke" in Choan-chiu style, the "le" in Chiang-chiu style and the "e" in E-mng style. We need to see the "Logo-syllabic writing system" that is mean in this kind of writing system, some character is expressed in the "logogram" and some other characters is expressed in the "syllabogram".
These "function words" 嘅 ke, 兮 e, (?) le, 的 tek, 個 kou/ ko, they all express in the form of "syllabogram". These words 三 saN / sam, 量 niu / liong, 配 phoe / phe, 果 ke / ko, 開 khui / khai, they all express in the form of "logogram".
The character "之", I guess that is pronounced as "chit" as "禃 chit" in the Hokkian speaking.
SL
Although the character "兮 e" as a quantifier could not see in those Classic Chinese of Literature Chinese. But we need to know a knowledge that the "Hokkian (Chinese character) writing system" (or Mandarin (Chinese character), Cantonese (Chinese character), Hakka (Chinese character) etc.) is a "Logo-syllabic writing system", the "function word" in this kind of writing system usually select a character (function word) from those similar sound of a next character to express the syllable of a "function word".
As the examples of "ke", "le" and "e". The "ke" may be the original word, and "le", "e" are the local style, we should write the "ke" in Choan-chiu style, the "le" in Chiang-chiu style and the "e" in E-mng style. We need to see the "Logo-syllabic writing system" that is mean in this kind of writing system, some character is expressed in the "logogram" and some other characters is expressed in the "syllabogram".
These "function words" 嘅 ke, 兮 e, (?) le, 的 tek, 個 kou/ ko, they all express in the form of "syllabogram". These words 三 saN / sam, 量 niu / liong, 配 phoe / phe, 果 ke / ko, 開 khui / khai, they all express in the form of "logogram".
The character "之", I guess that is pronounced as "chit" as "禃 chit" in the Hokkian speaking.
SL
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hong
SL ,I think you still have a lot to learn.cuanciu say ge is because of the last consonant t in tsit 蜀 It becomes tsik ge for some people. Many also say e and le in cuanciu.
之 middle chinese is just ci with no entering tone.It is krj--- consonant in older chinese.Buy a book called 江西客家方言概况，see page 281,2 for details.其 is a 假借 for it。
兮 is just 语气词 in ancient chinese like 诗经.
We have no problem for 个 as classifier in hakka and cantonese but we have problem in minnan.There is only one scholar from China 游汝杰 who said this is the correct hanzi 个 for minnan 。kai is the original sound in teochew and e is just 过渡音。People will not accept this kind of explanation.
He said this in his article 台语量词在南方方言里。。。(台语means 壮语等)
之 middle chinese is just ci with no entering tone.It is krj--- consonant in older chinese.Buy a book called 江西客家方言概况，see page 281,2 for details.其 is a 假借 for it。
兮 is just 语气词 in ancient chinese like 诗经.
We have no problem for 个 as classifier in hakka and cantonese but we have problem in minnan.There is only one scholar from China 游汝杰 who said this is the correct hanzi 个 for minnan 。kai is the original sound in teochew and e is just 过渡音。People will not accept this kind of explanation.
He said this in his article 台语量词在南方方言里。。。(台语means 壮语等)
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hong
Lirulong's article
其在闽语普遍用作结构助词，相当于普通话的<的>，在沿海闽语又作量词。福州话用作量词时读重为ki,是其的本音，用作助词时读为轻声i .闽北闽中只用作助词。闽南的泉漳厦用作量词时读阳平 e,后连其他音节时变调，用作助词是念轻声e。如 go e lang ge=五个人的是与前音韵尾合音的现象。
潮州和海南用作量词及助词都是 kai
上古汉语有把其用于代词及副词之后作助词的。诗经--彼其之子。。。
其也有置于疑问代词之后的说法，怎样福州说 tsuong gi,泉州 tsiunn e ,闽语的其的多种用法可能就是从这里引申开去的。
He can't explain 其 as 量词 in old chinese.
其在闽语普遍用作结构助词，相当于普通话的<的>，在沿海闽语又作量词。福州话用作量词时读重为ki,是其的本音，用作助词时读为轻声i .闽北闽中只用作助词。闽南的泉漳厦用作量词时读阳平 e,后连其他音节时变调，用作助词是念轻声e。如 go e lang ge=五个人的是与前音韵尾合音的现象。
潮州和海南用作量词及助词都是 kai
上古汉语有把其用于代词及副词之后作助词的。诗经--彼其之子。。。
其也有置于疑问代词之后的说法，怎样福州说 tsuong gi,泉州 tsiunn e ,闽语的其的多种用法可能就是从这里引申开去的。
He can't explain 其 as 量词 in old chinese.
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Andrew
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hong
彼其之子,I have to email prof.刘纶鑫 about 之 appear along 其 in here.
之is the benzi.章太炎 is a famous scholar in last century.He said in his book called 新方言=江浙，广东诸方言的邻属助词革(或作格) 是从上古的其字发展而来的，上古常用其取代之。
尚书 朕其弟，小子封。
as for the sound in modern 之，it is like the word 家 from k changing into j consonant.The vowel also change as well.
another word is 是 ，In old chinese it is with consonant h but not with sh now.So the benzi for cantonese /hakka 判断动词 <he> isn't 系 but 是。
之 has a meaning of this /that,so I think minnan use it as a classifier.
之is the benzi.章太炎 is a famous scholar in last century.He said in his book called 新方言=江浙，广东诸方言的邻属助词革(或作格) 是从上古的其字发展而来的，上古常用其取代之。
尚书 朕其弟，小子封。
as for the sound in modern 之，it is like the word 家 from k changing into j consonant.The vowel also change as well.
another word is 是 ，In old chinese it is with consonant h but not with sh now.So the benzi for cantonese /hakka 判断动词 <he> isn't 系 but 是。
之 has a meaning of this /that,so I think minnan use it as a classifier.