原始台语的量词 kai 和汉语<个>的上古音相合。汉语量词<个>最初在先秦文献出现时，就是泛指的，有人认为它的词源是形容词<介>。我们认为这种看法是不对的。泛指量词<个>从汉语本身找不到来源。。。。。(游汝杰)
we have to know 蜀 tsit in minnan doesn't sound correct with the 反切=市玉切。It should have ik vowel(ek in teochew).Prof.Li said it was due to vowel i.
Ang-Mor Knee
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hong
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Guest
> cuanciu say "ge" is because of the last consonant "t" in "tsit 蜀" It becomes "tsik ge" for some people.
"蜀 so" (Hok-chiu) means one,
"蜀 so" (Heng-hoa) means one,
"蜀 sok / so" (Choan-chiu, E-mng) mean 1. one, 2. ancient place-name, 3. only one, 4. lonely, 5. silently, 6. depression
In th Hokkian speaking there have three character to mean one 1. 一 it, 2. 禃 chit, 3. 蜀 so.
But the Hok-chiu and Heng-hoa just the character "so 蜀" to mean one.
In the Choan-chiu and E-mng, this word "蜀 so" can be said;
1. so 蜀 (one) e.g. "Chit-kui kang-sit, khou-te-a khang-khang tng poaN so."
2. sok 蜀 (Su-chhoan "四川" province) e.g. "Sam-kok pau-koat u Ui-kok, Ngou-kok kah Sok-kok."
3. it-so 一蜀 (only one) e.g. "Goa chit-chun ti-leh it-so, ka-ki chit-kou lang."
4. chiaN-so 誠蜀 (lonely) e.g. "Chit-ke sou-chai na kau am-mi-si, hou lang kam-kak chiaN-so, koh sim-koaN-lai beh-khau beh-khau."
5. am-so-so 暗蜀蜀 (dark silently) e.g. "Ti e-hng-si koh lo-hou thiN, hit-tiau hang-a am-so-so."
6. chhi-bin so-so 市面 蜀蜀 (the depression of market) e.g. "Chit-kui-lo tang, keng-che phai kah chiaN-thiam chhi-bin so-so."
SL
"蜀 so" (Hok-chiu) means one,
"蜀 so" (Heng-hoa) means one,
"蜀 sok / so" (Choan-chiu, E-mng) mean 1. one, 2. ancient place-name, 3. only one, 4. lonely, 5. silently, 6. depression
In th Hokkian speaking there have three character to mean one 1. 一 it, 2. 禃 chit, 3. 蜀 so.
But the Hok-chiu and Heng-hoa just the character "so 蜀" to mean one.
In the Choan-chiu and E-mng, this word "蜀 so" can be said;
1. so 蜀 (one) e.g. "Chit-kui kang-sit, khou-te-a khang-khang tng poaN so."
2. sok 蜀 (Su-chhoan "四川" province) e.g. "Sam-kok pau-koat u Ui-kok, Ngou-kok kah Sok-kok."
3. it-so 一蜀 (only one) e.g. "Goa chit-chun ti-leh it-so, ka-ki chit-kou lang."
4. chiaN-so 誠蜀 (lonely) e.g. "Chit-ke sou-chai na kau am-mi-si, hou lang kam-kak chiaN-so, koh sim-koaN-lai beh-khau beh-khau."
5. am-so-so 暗蜀蜀 (dark silently) e.g. "Ti e-hng-si koh lo-hou thiN, hit-tiau hang-a am-so-so."
6. chhi-bin so-so 市面 蜀蜀 (the depression of market) e.g. "Chit-kui-lo tang, keng-che phai kah chiaN-thiam chhi-bin so-so."
SL
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Guest
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Guest
> "之" middle chinese is just "ci" with no entering tone.
It is krj--- consonant in older chinese.
Buy a book called 江西客家方言概况，see page 281,2 for details. "其" is a 假借 for it。
This book <江西客家方言概况> (Kang-sai Kheh-ka Hong-gian Khai-hong) said the character "之" is krj--- consonant in older chinese and the character "其" is a 假借字 (syllabogram) for it. The author of this book may be wrong in explanation on these characters "其" and "之".
These character "之" and "其" also existed in Classic Chinese as the "function word" in the form of syllabogram. The character "其" pronounce as "peh-thak-im; 其 ke", "bun-thak-im; 其 ki", in the Hokkian language. The Hakka and Cantonese all pronounce "其 ke", as the "peh-thak-im; 其 ke" as in the Hokkian. e.g.
Hokkian: 三 其(嘅) 先生 = saN ke sin-sEN; 我 其(嘅) 先生 = goa ke sin-sEN
Hakka: 三 其(嘅) 先生 = sam ke sin-sang; 我 其(嘅) 先生 = ngai ke sin-sang
Cantonese: 三 個 先生 = sam kou sin-sang; 我 其(嘅) 先生 = ngou ke sin-sang
The Hokkian, hakka and Cantonese all have the same function word "其 Ke" (the original character).
This character "嘅 ke" is a "dialect character" of Cantonese speaking.
SL
It is krj--- consonant in older chinese.
Buy a book called 江西客家方言概况，see page 281,2 for details. "其" is a 假借 for it。
This book <江西客家方言概况> (Kang-sai Kheh-ka Hong-gian Khai-hong) said the character "之" is krj--- consonant in older chinese and the character "其" is a 假借字 (syllabogram) for it. The author of this book may be wrong in explanation on these characters "其" and "之".
These character "之" and "其" also existed in Classic Chinese as the "function word" in the form of syllabogram. The character "其" pronounce as "peh-thak-im; 其 ke", "bun-thak-im; 其 ki", in the Hokkian language. The Hakka and Cantonese all pronounce "其 ke", as the "peh-thak-im; 其 ke" as in the Hokkian. e.g.
Hokkian: 三 其(嘅) 先生 = saN ke sin-sEN; 我 其(嘅) 先生 = goa ke sin-sEN
Hakka: 三 其(嘅) 先生 = sam ke sin-sang; 我 其(嘅) 先生 = ngai ke sin-sang
Cantonese: 三 個 先生 = sam kou sin-sang; 我 其(嘅) 先生 = ngou ke sin-sang
The Hokkian, hakka and Cantonese all have the same function word "其 Ke" (the original character).
This character "嘅 ke" is a "dialect character" of Cantonese speaking.
SL
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Guest
> Li Ru-long's article:
"其"
1. 在 闽语 普遍 用作 "结构助词"，相当 于 普通话 的 <的>，
2. 在 沿海 闽语 又作 "量词"。
I find that Professor Li Lu-long's point is right.
> 福州话 用作 "量词" 时 读重 为 ki, 是 "其" 的 本音，用作 助词 时 读 为 轻声 "i", 闽北 闽中 只 用作 助词。
I guess that pronounciation of "其 ke", this peh-thak-im of southern Hokkian is the original sound (本音), because "其 ke" also existing in Hakka, Cantonese and Tibetan language, and the Hok-chiu pronounce as "其 ki" is just as a bun-thak-im of southern Hokkian.
SL
"其"
1. 在 闽语 普遍 用作 "结构助词"，相当 于 普通话 的 <的>，
2. 在 沿海 闽语 又作 "量词"。
I find that Professor Li Lu-long's point is right.
> 福州话 用作 "量词" 时 读重 为 ki, 是 "其" 的 本音，用作 助词 时 读 为 轻声 "i", 闽北 闽中 只 用作 助词。
I guess that pronounciation of "其 ke", this peh-thak-im of southern Hokkian is the original sound (本音), because "其 ke" also existing in Hakka, Cantonese and Tibetan language, and the Hok-chiu pronounce as "其 ki" is just as a bun-thak-im of southern Hokkian.
SL
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Guest
> 兮 is just 语气词 in ancient chinese like 诗经.
You are right, "兮 e" is just the "语气词" in Classic Chinese. When we hope to design a "hokkian (Chinese Character) writing system" (a kind of Logo-syllabic writing system) for Hokkian language, some "function word" should select the next character with similar sound as its syllabogram (假借字). The character "兮 e" is a suitable character to express the sound of "e". Anybody could also suggest their favourite "character" (syllabogram; 假借字) for the sound of "e" and post it for the public discussion.
SL
You are right, "兮 e" is just the "语气词" in Classic Chinese. When we hope to design a "hokkian (Chinese Character) writing system" (a kind of Logo-syllabic writing system) for Hokkian language, some "function word" should select the next character with similar sound as its syllabogram (假借字). The character "兮 e" is a suitable character to express the sound of "e". Anybody could also suggest their favourite "character" (syllabogram; 假借字) for the sound of "e" and post it for the public discussion.
SL
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Guest
> There is only one scholar from China 游汝杰 who said this is the correct hanzi 个 for minnan 。
> "kai" is the original sound in teochew and "e" is just 过渡音。People will not accept this kind of explanation.
> He said this in his article <台语量词在南方方言里>。。。(台语means 壮语等)
This point of Professor Iu lu-kiat (游汝杰) may be wrong.
> Li Ru-long's article:
> "其"
> 闽南 的 泉漳厦 用作 量词 时 读 阳平 "e", 后 连 其他 音节 时 变调，用作 助词 是 念 轻声 "e"。
> 如 "gou-e lang ge = 五个 人 的" 是 与 前音 韵尾 合音 的 现象。
The Phoenician, English, Malaysian all belong to the "Alphabet writing system",
they all just have a set of pronounciation as "the pronounciation of oral speaking" (语音).
The Hokkian, Cantonese, Hakka, Wu, Mandarin, Japanese, Korean and Vietnam all borrowed the character of "logogram" (Chinese character) as their "Logo- syllabic writing system", therefor they all have two set of pronounciation;
1. the pronounciation of logogram (字音)
2. the pronounciation of oral speaking (语音)
I find that the "其" was pronounced as "kle 其" (double-consonant) in the "pronounciation of logogram" (字音).
In our everyday speaking, we could pronounce as "ke", "le", and "e". These three sound all come from the "kle 其", when we pronounce in "ke", it lost consolant "l"; pronounce as "le", it lost consolant "k"; and pronounce as "e", it lost all initials.
These "ke", "le' and "e" all are the "pronounciation of oral speaking" (语音).
These "变调" and "合音" all exist in the oral speaking of Hokkian language in Ancient, Middle and Present time.
When we design a "Hokkian (Logogram-Syllabogram) writing system", which is a style of oral speaking (peh-oe-bun), so the sound "其(嘅) ke", "le" and "e" need to select a suitable Chinese character to express them.
SL
> "kai" is the original sound in teochew and "e" is just 过渡音。People will not accept this kind of explanation.
> He said this in his article <台语量词在南方方言里>。。。(台语means 壮语等)
This point of Professor Iu lu-kiat (游汝杰) may be wrong.
> Li Ru-long's article:
> "其"
> 闽南 的 泉漳厦 用作 量词 时 读 阳平 "e", 后 连 其他 音节 时 变调，用作 助词 是 念 轻声 "e"。
> 如 "gou-e lang ge = 五个 人 的" 是 与 前音 韵尾 合音 的 现象。
The Phoenician, English, Malaysian all belong to the "Alphabet writing system",
they all just have a set of pronounciation as "the pronounciation of oral speaking" (语音).
The Hokkian, Cantonese, Hakka, Wu, Mandarin, Japanese, Korean and Vietnam all borrowed the character of "logogram" (Chinese character) as their "Logo- syllabic writing system", therefor they all have two set of pronounciation;
1. the pronounciation of logogram (字音)
2. the pronounciation of oral speaking (语音)
I find that the "其" was pronounced as "kle 其" (double-consonant) in the "pronounciation of logogram" (字音).
In our everyday speaking, we could pronounce as "ke", "le", and "e". These three sound all come from the "kle 其", when we pronounce in "ke", it lost consolant "l"; pronounce as "le", it lost consolant "k"; and pronounce as "e", it lost all initials.
These "ke", "le' and "e" all are the "pronounciation of oral speaking" (语音).
These "变调" and "合音" all exist in the oral speaking of Hokkian language in Ancient, Middle and Present time.
When we design a "Hokkian (Logogram-Syllabogram) writing system", which is a style of oral speaking (peh-oe-bun), so the sound "其(嘅) ke", "le" and "e" need to select a suitable Chinese character to express them.
SL
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hong
蜀 is an word with entering tone.In fuzhou it is soh,in minnan is siok.hakka is cuk.You examples are wrong.Buy some dict.Anonymous wrote:> cuanciu say "ge" is because of the last consonant "t" in "tsit 蜀" It becomes "tsik ge" for some people.
"蜀 so" (Hok-chiu) means one,
"蜀 so" (Heng-hoa) means one,
"蜀 sok / so" (Choan-chiu, E-mng) mean 1. one, 2. ancient place-name, 3. only one, 4. lonely, 5. silently, 6. depression
In th Hokkian speaking there have three character to mean one 1. 一 it, 2. 禃 chit, 3. 蜀 so.
But the Hok-chiu and Heng-hoa just the character "so 蜀" to mean one.
In the Choan-chiu and E-mng, this word "蜀 so" can be said;
1. so 蜀 (one) e.g. "Chit-kui kang-sit, khou-te-a khang-khang tng poaN so."
2. sok 蜀 (Su-chhoan "四川" province) e.g. "Sam-kok pau-koat u Ui-kok, Ngou-kok kah Sok-kok."
3. it-so 一蜀 (only one) e.g. "Goa chit-chun ti-leh it-so, ka-ki chit-kou lang."
4. chiaN-so 誠蜀 (lonely) e.g. "Chit-ke sou-chai na kau am-mi-si, hou lang kam-kak chiaN-so, koh sim-koaN-lai beh-khau beh-khau."
5. am-so-so 暗蜀蜀 (dark silently) e.g. "Ti e-hng-si koh lo-hou thiN, hit-tiau hang-a am-so-so."
6. chhi-bin so-so 市面 蜀蜀 (the depression of market) e.g. "Chit-kui-lo tang, keng-che phai kah chiaN-thiam chhi-bin so-so."
SL
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hong