In Cantonese, I notice that what is regarded by all the dictionaries as the first tone has in fact another tone - a tone that drops.
For example, take the word 醫---
First tone: 醫生﹐醫科
Dropping first tone: 醫務﹐醫院﹐醫藥
Some dictionaries may make the distinction between speaking and reading text, but I think it sounds funny if you read aloud all the dropping first tone as the (flat) first tone.
What does the forum think?[/code]
The first tone
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Donq
Normal first tone verse flat first tone
This is an interesting issue regarding the first tone in Cantonese.
If you understand the structure of linguistics, you may agree that each word is governed by how we would have sounded it. My BeiJing teacher often reminded us (my mother tongue is Cantonese) that when a word is combined with another word, that the tone of the following word(s) has influenced over how the tone of the 1st word would end.
Take the words used in this case:
1) 醫藥 = because the 2nd word ends abruptedly in tone, it, thus, causes the 1st word which supposedly sounds flat now to drop as well.
2) 醫生 = because the 2nd word is a first tone word, thus, the ending tone will remain in flat first tone.
Just my two bits.
If you understand the structure of linguistics, you may agree that each word is governed by how we would have sounded it. My BeiJing teacher often reminded us (my mother tongue is Cantonese) that when a word is combined with another word, that the tone of the following word(s) has influenced over how the tone of the 1st word would end.
Take the words used in this case:
1) 醫藥 = because the 2nd word ends abruptedly in tone, it, thus, causes the 1st word which supposedly sounds flat now to drop as well.
2) 醫生 = because the 2nd word is a first tone word, thus, the ending tone will remain in flat first tone.
Just my two bits.
Donq, a couple of examples to what you mentioned about Mandarin are:
我很好 (很 in second tone), 旅館很遠 (旅,很 in second tone); although each word is pronounced singly in the third tone.
Back to Cantonese, (which is also my mother tongue, but not my 'father' tongue), I already suspected all along that a first tone followed by another first tone is pronounced unchanged - flat. (Has anyone got a counter example?)
But a first tone followed by a second tone is not pronounced consistently:
醫院 vs 班長(student prefect, class monitor) - both second words 院,長 are in the second tone, but 醫 in falling first, and 班 in flat first.
燒賣蝦餃 - like the previous example, 賣,餃 in second tone, but 燒 in falling first, 蝦 in flat first. (yum yum!)
So what is the rule here?
我很好 (很 in second tone), 旅館很遠 (旅,很 in second tone); although each word is pronounced singly in the third tone.
Back to Cantonese, (which is also my mother tongue, but not my 'father' tongue), I already suspected all along that a first tone followed by another first tone is pronounced unchanged - flat. (Has anyone got a counter example?)
But a first tone followed by a second tone is not pronounced consistently:
醫院 vs 班長(student prefect, class monitor) - both second words 院,長 are in the second tone, but 醫 in falling first, and 班 in flat first.
燒賣蝦餃 - like the previous example, 賣,餃 in second tone, but 燒 in falling first, 蝦 in flat first. (yum yum!)
So what is the rule here?
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NgKY
賣 and 餃 have different tone;賣 is Yang-Qu, 餃 is Yin-shang;
院 should be in Yang-Qu, the Yin-shang reading seems colloquial, as you can see from the phrase 妹妹, 地下, where Yang-Qu is changed into Yin-shang.
As for the hypothesis, it still have problem: 夫 in 漁夫 and 丈夫 have different reading: flat in 漁夫 and falling in 丈夫.
Also some single word have this distinction: 思 flat, 司 fall, 詩 fall.
院 should be in Yang-Qu, the Yin-shang reading seems colloquial, as you can see from the phrase 妹妹, 地下, where Yang-Qu is changed into Yin-shang.
As for the hypothesis, it still have problem: 夫 in 漁夫 and 丈夫 have different reading: flat in 漁夫 and falling in 丈夫.
Also some single word have this distinction: 思 flat, 司 fall, 詩 fall.
Which Cantonese (sub-)dialect are you speaking? I've only heard/said 燒賣 as siu1(falling) maai2. 賣 is maai6 only when used as a verb as in 賣報紙. And 醫院 as ji1(falling) jyun2. Go check 院 on this linkNgKY wrote:賣 and 餃 have different tone;賣 is Yang-Qu, 餃 is Yin-shang;
院 should be in Yang-Qu, the Yin-shang reading seems colloquial, as you can see from the phrase 妹妹, 地下, where Yang-Qu is changed into Yin-shang.
As for the hypothesis, it still have problem: 夫 in 漁夫 and 丈夫 have different reading: flat in 漁夫 and falling in 丈夫.
Also some single word have this distinction: 思 flat, 司 fall, 詩 fall.
http://humanum.arts.cuhk.edu.hk/Lexis/lexi-can/
You said "As for the hypothesis, ...". Which hypothesis?
夫 in 漁夫 and 丈夫 - I am sure 夫 is fu1 falling in both cases, in normal conversation.
Not sure what you are trying to prove with your examples of 妹妹, 地下. I KNOW tones are changeable when speaking, as opposed to, possibly, when reading out loud a literal passage. My question using 醫院 vs 班長, 燒賣蝦餃 is if we can find some rules for tone change, which can be useful to people learning to speak Cantonese.