Hi All,
Just a quick question. Do you call cabbage Ko-lê-chhài in SE Asia? Or do you have another name for it?
Heruler
Ko-lê-chhài (cabbage)
Yes, we also call it 高麗菜 (Korean vegetable?). Btw was it originated from Korea? Or due to English "cole" <http://discworld.imaginary.com/external ... rigin.html>?
Hi niuc,
Thanks for the information. Thank you also for the Web site.
I believe the term 高麗菜 'Korean vegetable' is a misnomer. I checked with many Korean friends, they all say that cabbage was introduced from the West. They call it 'yangbaechu' (= 洋白菜) whereas the leafy white vegetable (known as the 'napa' in the US, Chinaskohl in Germany, and chinaskål in Denmark) is called baechu (白菜). Also Koreans use baechu for their spicy kimchi (pickled vegetables), but never use yangbaechu for kimchi.
I checked a book on Teuchiu, 說潮州話 (Speaking in Teuchiu) by 劉堯, published by 華南理工大學出版社 (The Press of the Technical University of South China) in Guangzhou (1995). Teuchiu also calls it ko-lê and use different Chinese characters, 哥嚦 with the second character 嚦 having a 'straw' radical on top (a special Teuchiu character?), nothing to do with Korea.
The term 高麗菜 was adopted in Taiwan during the Japanese Period. It was listed as 高麗菜 in the 臺日大辭典 (Taiwanese-Japanese Great Dictionary) published by the Japanese Governor's Office in Taiwan in 1931. At that time Korea was under Japanese domination, and so it was easy for the Japanese Government in Taiwan to apply that name to a vegetable that sounds so similar to Korea.
In supermarkets in Singapore, is the vegetable also given the name in the Chinese characters as 高麗菜?
Heruler
Thanks for the information. Thank you also for the Web site.
I believe the term 高麗菜 'Korean vegetable' is a misnomer. I checked with many Korean friends, they all say that cabbage was introduced from the West. They call it 'yangbaechu' (= 洋白菜) whereas the leafy white vegetable (known as the 'napa' in the US, Chinaskohl in Germany, and chinaskål in Denmark) is called baechu (白菜). Also Koreans use baechu for their spicy kimchi (pickled vegetables), but never use yangbaechu for kimchi.
I checked a book on Teuchiu, 說潮州話 (Speaking in Teuchiu) by 劉堯, published by 華南理工大學出版社 (The Press of the Technical University of South China) in Guangzhou (1995). Teuchiu also calls it ko-lê and use different Chinese characters, 哥嚦 with the second character 嚦 having a 'straw' radical on top (a special Teuchiu character?), nothing to do with Korea.
The term 高麗菜 was adopted in Taiwan during the Japanese Period. It was listed as 高麗菜 in the 臺日大辭典 (Taiwanese-Japanese Great Dictionary) published by the Japanese Governor's Office in Taiwan in 1931. At that time Korea was under Japanese domination, and so it was easy for the Japanese Government in Taiwan to apply that name to a vegetable that sounds so similar to Korea.
In supermarkets in Singapore, is the vegetable also given the name in the Chinese characters as 高麗菜?
Heruler
Last edited by Heruler on Wed Sep 27, 2006 11:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Heruler
Thanks for the interesting information.
In supermarkets in Singapore, I have yet to see product names in Chinese. It seems that Zaobao (Chinese newspaper here) also uses the term 高丽菜 <http://health.zaobao.com/pages3/healthy150103.html>.
Since cabbage originated from Western countries, may be ko1-le7 was derived from "cole". Btw in Taiwan is it ko1-le5-chai3 or ko1-le7-chai3 (le5 or le7; 麗 is le7)? In my dialect the sandhi for both tone 5 and tone 7 is tone 3, so both ko1-le5-chai3 or ko1-le7-chai3 sound exactly the same.
Thanks for the interesting information.
In supermarkets in Singapore, I have yet to see product names in Chinese. It seems that Zaobao (Chinese newspaper here) also uses the term 高丽菜 <http://health.zaobao.com/pages3/healthy150103.html>.
Since cabbage originated from Western countries, may be ko1-le7 was derived from "cole". Btw in Taiwan is it ko1-le5-chai3 or ko1-le7-chai3 (le5 or le7; 麗 is le7)? In my dialect the sandhi for both tone 5 and tone 7 is tone 3, so both ko1-le5-chai3 or ko1-le7-chai3 sound exactly the same.
Hi niuc,
In Taiwan the cabbage is called ko-lê-chhài. As you pointed out, because the tone sandhi for both tone 5 and tone 7 is tone 3, we are not sure about the original tone. Here I just followed the spelling and tone mark given by the dictionaries of Carstairs Douglas and William Campbell. The term is listed in both dictionaries under lê. Now, what is interesting is that in Campbell, lê is considered a non-Han word with the character (麗 Lî) placed in a parenthesis, suggesting that the hanji is borrowed for writing a native Holó word.
Originally, cabage is called ko-lê. But because the Korean ginseng ko-lê-sam 高麗蔘 is usually called just ko-lê, it forced the name for cabbage changed to ko-lê-chhài, and acquired the Chinese characters 高麗菜.
By mentioning the English cole, it looks like you have been thinking what I have been thinking. Here we have solid Chinese literature to back us up regarding the origin of the vegetable. Recall that I have talked about the Germanic customs (in Beowulf) shared by the Taiwanese/Hokkien. I don't know where in the vast sea of Chinese literature to look for any mentions of the customs. I have been checking the encyclopedia of Emperor Kangxi (古今圖書集成), and haven't had any luck yet.
But with vegetables, we are in luck, thanks to the great tradition of Chinese herbalists over the last 2 millenia. All we need to go is 李時珍 本草綱目. The entry on cabbage is copied below.
I will write up what I found in the herbals in my next posting.
Heruler
P.S. The figure on cabbage from The Great Herbal of Li Shih-Zheng of Ming Dynasty has been rescanned and reposted. The description is enlarged so that the statements "this was originated in the Western Lands" (此是西土藍也) and "The Quang and Hu peoples grow it widely, but rarely found in the land of the Han" (羌胡多種食之, 漢地少有) - cited in a later posting - can be seen much clearly. 1/10/07.
In Taiwan the cabbage is called ko-lê-chhài. As you pointed out, because the tone sandhi for both tone 5 and tone 7 is tone 3, we are not sure about the original tone. Here I just followed the spelling and tone mark given by the dictionaries of Carstairs Douglas and William Campbell. The term is listed in both dictionaries under lê. Now, what is interesting is that in Campbell, lê is considered a non-Han word with the character (麗 Lî) placed in a parenthesis, suggesting that the hanji is borrowed for writing a native Holó word.
Originally, cabage is called ko-lê. But because the Korean ginseng ko-lê-sam 高麗蔘 is usually called just ko-lê, it forced the name for cabbage changed to ko-lê-chhài, and acquired the Chinese characters 高麗菜.
By mentioning the English cole, it looks like you have been thinking what I have been thinking. Here we have solid Chinese literature to back us up regarding the origin of the vegetable. Recall that I have talked about the Germanic customs (in Beowulf) shared by the Taiwanese/Hokkien. I don't know where in the vast sea of Chinese literature to look for any mentions of the customs. I have been checking the encyclopedia of Emperor Kangxi (古今圖書集成), and haven't had any luck yet.
But with vegetables, we are in luck, thanks to the great tradition of Chinese herbalists over the last 2 millenia. All we need to go is 李時珍 本草綱目. The entry on cabbage is copied below.
I will write up what I found in the herbals in my next posting.
Heruler
P.S. The figure on cabbage from The Great Herbal of Li Shih-Zheng of Ming Dynasty has been rescanned and reposted. The description is enlarged so that the statements "this was originated in the Western Lands" (此是西土藍也) and "The Quang and Hu peoples grow it widely, but rarely found in the land of the Han" (羌胡多種食之, 漢地少有) - cited in a later posting - can be seen much clearly. 1/10/07.
Last edited by Heruler on Wed Jan 10, 2007 7:51 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Heruler, thanks a lot for the info! 
You are right that 麗 is also listed with le5 (colloquial reading) in Douglas', so far I only knew it as le7 [e.g. 美麗 bi2-le7]. I used to heard of a kind of tonic named ko1-le5 but didn't realize that it refers to Korean ginseng! 
I always thought of 高麗 as ko1-le7 instead of ko1-le5. 
About ko1-le5 and cole, I look forward to reading your next posting. Btw the picture of the entry on cabbage is too small (can't be read). Would you mind to post a bigger one? Thank you.
You are right that 麗 is also listed with le5 (colloquial reading) in Douglas', so far I only knew it as le7 [e.g. 美麗 bi2-le7]. I used to heard of a kind of tonic named ko1-le5 but didn't realize that it refers to Korean ginseng! I always thought of 高麗 as ko1-le7 instead of ko1-le5. About ko1-le5 and cole, I look forward to reading your next posting. Btw the picture of the entry on cabbage is too small (can't be read). Would you mind to post a bigger one? Thank you.
Hi niuc,
To see the figure a little bigger, you just move your cursor over the figure and click on it. It will lead you to a Website, "ImageShack", where I "park" the figure. It's a free picture-hosting Web site, and so it carries advertisements.
I am still not satisfied with the process of loading figures on ImageShack. Part of the problems is that I am still using the old low-tech modem for connection to the Internet. And I am still on the "learning curve" about how to load my pictures on the Hokkien forum. This forum does not allow us to post figures directly from our computers. I would appreciate it if someone can tell me a better way. I have lots of interesting pictures to share with you.
Heruler
To see the figure a little bigger, you just move your cursor over the figure and click on it. It will lead you to a Website, "ImageShack", where I "park" the figure. It's a free picture-hosting Web site, and so it carries advertisements.
I am still not satisfied with the process of loading figures on ImageShack. Part of the problems is that I am still using the old low-tech modem for connection to the Internet. And I am still on the "learning curve" about how to load my pictures on the Hokkien forum. This forum does not allow us to post figures directly from our computers. I would appreciate it if someone can tell me a better way. I have lots of interesting pictures to share with you.
Heruler
Hi Heruler & Niuc,
Thanks for this interesting topic. I have always been confused by what ginseng actually is…
When I was young, my grandmother used to make something called "iaunn7-som1" (Penang Hokkien). I think in my grandmother's more Amoy-like Hokkien, it was called "iunn7-sim1". It was a completely dried root, yellowish-brown in colour, about 1.5-2 cm in diameter, perhaps 5-8cm long, *very* hard, and smelling very faintly of "Chinese herbal medicine". My grandmother would cut off about 10-15 very thin diagonal slices from the root, and then pour very, very hot boiling water on them. They were then left to soak for a while, in one of those tall Chinese tea-cups, with a lid and handle. When the mixture cooled down, my grandfather would drink it, leaving the soft, wet slices at the bottom of the cup.
It was taken when someone was feeling weak, or unwell. As you probably know, this was called "ciah7-poo2" (="eating for strengthening"?).
When I was unwell, they would also make this for me, but, if I remember correctly, this was only after I was a teenager. I think my parents said it was unsuitable for young children.
So, I was aware of "iaunn-som" from about 5 years old (watching my grandfather drink it) to about 14 years old (occasionally drinking it myself). I remember the taste quite well: it was so distinctive... like a very mild, bitter-sweet taste.
Since then, from about the age of 16 up to now, I have been aware of the English term "ginseng". I saw/see it in bottles, in Chinese shops. In these places, it's a long root, like a radish, perhaps 15 to 20 cm long, 2-3 cm in diameter, and always in a bottle, soaked in a yellowish liquid, slightly more golden-yellow than the colour of white wine (i.e. wet, *not* dried).
Lastly, all my life, I heard the term "ko-le-som/sim", which I suppose I vaguely associated with ginseng.
My questions are:
1. Heruler's entry seems to imply that this association is correct: "ko-le-som/sim" *is* ginseng. Is this correct?
2. I heard it called "som" and "sim", but "sam" appears to be another variant pronunciation?
3. Is the iaunn-som/iunn-sim which I knew as a child just the dried version of this?
4. What did the Chinese traditionally take this medicine for, and was it indeed considered unsuitable for young children? Is there some connection with virility and potency here? Perhaps that's why it was not considered suitable for young children.
5. If someone could give the characters for "ciah7-poo2", I would be very grateful.
Thanks,
Sim.
Thanks for this interesting topic. I have always been confused by what ginseng actually is…
When I was young, my grandmother used to make something called "iaunn7-som1" (Penang Hokkien). I think in my grandmother's more Amoy-like Hokkien, it was called "iunn7-sim1". It was a completely dried root, yellowish-brown in colour, about 1.5-2 cm in diameter, perhaps 5-8cm long, *very* hard, and smelling very faintly of "Chinese herbal medicine". My grandmother would cut off about 10-15 very thin diagonal slices from the root, and then pour very, very hot boiling water on them. They were then left to soak for a while, in one of those tall Chinese tea-cups, with a lid and handle. When the mixture cooled down, my grandfather would drink it, leaving the soft, wet slices at the bottom of the cup.
It was taken when someone was feeling weak, or unwell. As you probably know, this was called "ciah7-poo2" (="eating for strengthening"?).
When I was unwell, they would also make this for me, but, if I remember correctly, this was only after I was a teenager. I think my parents said it was unsuitable for young children.
So, I was aware of "iaunn-som" from about 5 years old (watching my grandfather drink it) to about 14 years old (occasionally drinking it myself). I remember the taste quite well: it was so distinctive... like a very mild, bitter-sweet taste.
Since then, from about the age of 16 up to now, I have been aware of the English term "ginseng". I saw/see it in bottles, in Chinese shops. In these places, it's a long root, like a radish, perhaps 15 to 20 cm long, 2-3 cm in diameter, and always in a bottle, soaked in a yellowish liquid, slightly more golden-yellow than the colour of white wine (i.e. wet, *not* dried).
Lastly, all my life, I heard the term "ko-le-som/sim", which I suppose I vaguely associated with ginseng.
My questions are:
1. Heruler's entry seems to imply that this association is correct: "ko-le-som/sim" *is* ginseng. Is this correct?
2. I heard it called "som" and "sim", but "sam" appears to be another variant pronunciation?
3. Is the iaunn-som/iunn-sim which I knew as a child just the dried version of this?
4. What did the Chinese traditionally take this medicine for, and was it indeed considered unsuitable for young children? Is there some connection with virility and potency here? Perhaps that's why it was not considered suitable for young children.
5. If someone could give the characters for "ciah7-poo2", I would be very grateful.
Thanks,
Sim.
The origin of ko-lê (cabbage)
The Taiwanese/Hokkien name for cabbage, ko-lê, corresponds closely to the English cole. It is called Kohl in German, kool in Dutch, and kål (pronounced like [kol]) in Danish and Swedish. If we go back in time, we find that the ancient Germanic people learned about cabbage and its name caulis from the Romans. So, the Old English cāul or cāwel, Old Norse kál, and Old High German cōl all were derived from the Latin caulis. However, now in English the name cole has been completely supplanted by cabbage derived from Old French caboce which means ‘head’, refering to the head shape of cabbage. We find its vestige in the prepared dish called coleslaw, when you order a meal from Kentucky Fried Chicken.
Cabbage is called 甘藍 , 包心菜 , and 捲心菜 in Chinese, 球菜 and 葉牡丹 in Japanese, and 洋白菜 in Korean. So, the Taiwanese/Hokkien name ko-lê for cabbage is unique in the Far East. I have been puzzled by the fact that the Taiwanese/Hokkien ko-lê does not correspond to anything among all its neighbors, yet resembles so closely the European names. Luckily the long tradition of Chinese herbalists diligently recording the origins of various vegetables provides a solid clue to the origin of cabbage.
陳藏器 in Tang Dynasty compiled a supplement to the official pharmacopeia called 本草拾遺 Pún-chhó Sip-î. In it he wrote about the origin of cabbage that “此是西土藍也, 葉闊可食 this is a vegetable originating in the 'western land', its leaves are broad and edible.” The great herbalist 李時珍 of Ming Dynasty in his opus magnus 本草綱目 Pún-chhó Kong-bók, quoting a scholar 胡治居士 of an earlier era, states that 河東隴西羌胡多種食之, 漢地少有 the Qiang and Hu peoples living in East-of-the-River (Shanxi 山西) and West-of-the-Hill (Gansu 甘肅) widely grow this vegetable for eating, whereas it is rarely found in the lands of the Han.
A closely related vegetable called white mustard 白芥, which I think is called bakchoy 白菜 in Cantonese, was described by 蘇恭 of Tang Dynasty in The Herbal of Tang 唐本草 as introduced by the Western Barbarians (從西戎來). 陳藏器 (Tang Dynasty) also wrote that 白芥生太原河東 white mustard is grown in Taiyuan and East-of-the-River (Shanxi).
So combining all these ancient Chinese records, it is clear that cabbage and white mustard came from the western land, and were first grown in northern Shanxi. And the time of introduction was before Tang Dyansty. Even in Tang Dynasty, the Han people did not (or rarely) grow these vegetables. As I mentioned in another posting, northern Shanxi was the place where heterogeneous peoples from outside the Great Wall first settled in China, and where the Northern Wei, the first dynasty founded by foreigners, established its power base. The introduction of cabbage from the West via Shanxi into China closely follow the migration of foreign peoples into China. So it is quite clear that these foreign peoples brought cabbage to China.
It is a tribute to our ancestors that they diligently kept the European name ko-lê for cabbage all through the past 1500 years. Their spirit of perseverance is truly marvelous. We are proud of our heritage, and we should do our best to preserve it and pass it on to the next generation.
Heruler
The Taiwanese/Hokkien name for cabbage, ko-lê, corresponds closely to the English cole. It is called Kohl in German, kool in Dutch, and kål (pronounced like [kol]) in Danish and Swedish. If we go back in time, we find that the ancient Germanic people learned about cabbage and its name caulis from the Romans. So, the Old English cāul or cāwel, Old Norse kál, and Old High German cōl all were derived from the Latin caulis. However, now in English the name cole has been completely supplanted by cabbage derived from Old French caboce which means ‘head’, refering to the head shape of cabbage. We find its vestige in the prepared dish called coleslaw, when you order a meal from Kentucky Fried Chicken.
Cabbage is called 甘藍 , 包心菜 , and 捲心菜 in Chinese, 球菜 and 葉牡丹 in Japanese, and 洋白菜 in Korean. So, the Taiwanese/Hokkien name ko-lê for cabbage is unique in the Far East. I have been puzzled by the fact that the Taiwanese/Hokkien ko-lê does not correspond to anything among all its neighbors, yet resembles so closely the European names. Luckily the long tradition of Chinese herbalists diligently recording the origins of various vegetables provides a solid clue to the origin of cabbage.
陳藏器 in Tang Dynasty compiled a supplement to the official pharmacopeia called 本草拾遺 Pún-chhó Sip-î. In it he wrote about the origin of cabbage that “此是西土藍也, 葉闊可食 this is a vegetable originating in the 'western land', its leaves are broad and edible.” The great herbalist 李時珍 of Ming Dynasty in his opus magnus 本草綱目 Pún-chhó Kong-bók, quoting a scholar 胡治居士 of an earlier era, states that 河東隴西羌胡多種食之, 漢地少有 the Qiang and Hu peoples living in East-of-the-River (Shanxi 山西) and West-of-the-Hill (Gansu 甘肅) widely grow this vegetable for eating, whereas it is rarely found in the lands of the Han.
A closely related vegetable called white mustard 白芥, which I think is called bakchoy 白菜 in Cantonese, was described by 蘇恭 of Tang Dynasty in The Herbal of Tang 唐本草 as introduced by the Western Barbarians (從西戎來). 陳藏器 (Tang Dynasty) also wrote that 白芥生太原河東 white mustard is grown in Taiyuan and East-of-the-River (Shanxi).
So combining all these ancient Chinese records, it is clear that cabbage and white mustard came from the western land, and were first grown in northern Shanxi. And the time of introduction was before Tang Dyansty. Even in Tang Dynasty, the Han people did not (or rarely) grow these vegetables. As I mentioned in another posting, northern Shanxi was the place where heterogeneous peoples from outside the Great Wall first settled in China, and where the Northern Wei, the first dynasty founded by foreigners, established its power base. The introduction of cabbage from the West via Shanxi into China closely follow the migration of foreign peoples into China. So it is quite clear that these foreign peoples brought cabbage to China.
It is a tribute to our ancestors that they diligently kept the European name ko-lê for cabbage all through the past 1500 years. Their spirit of perseverance is truly marvelous. We are proud of our heritage, and we should do our best to preserve it and pass it on to the next generation.
Heruler
Hi SimL,
Let me try to answer your questions.
(1) Yes, it is correct.
(2) Som, sim and sam are all variant pronunciations of 蔘.
(3) The name iaunn-som/iunn-sim 洋蔘 refers to the ginseng of the West, usually meaning American ginseng. It does not mean "the dried version". It is also called 花旗蔘 hua-chhî(kî)-sam. As you know, 花旗 is derived from the 'corrupted' pronunciation of First City of 花旗銀行 The First City National Bank, the famous American bank.
The American ginseng is widely cultivated in Wisconsin. Big business up there, heavily invested by Taiwanese and Hong Kong businessmen.
(4) The traditional view is that ginseng is good for everything, especially for increasing vitality and virility 強精補腎. It is OK for children. In Taiwan anybody can have a bowl of sam-á ke 蔘仔雞 (ginseng chicken) at foodstands.
In the old days when ginseng was expensive, it was not given to children because it was thought that children would not appreciate it (placebo effect?) so that it was a waste of money to give to them.
(5) 吃補 are the characters for chiáh pó·, however, this is a little colloquial. In more formal writing, it is 進補. By the way, pó· 補 has a corresponding word in Old Norse:
Old Norse bót has 3 definitions:
(1) 'bettering, cure, remedy' = pó· ióh 補藥
(2) 'atonement, compensation' = pó· sióng / pó· siúnn 補償
(3) 'patch' = pó· (sann khò·) 補衫褲
All 3 definitions of bót are matched by pó· 補.
Heruler
Let me try to answer your questions.
(1) Yes, it is correct.
(2) Som, sim and sam are all variant pronunciations of 蔘.
(3) The name iaunn-som/iunn-sim 洋蔘 refers to the ginseng of the West, usually meaning American ginseng. It does not mean "the dried version". It is also called 花旗蔘 hua-chhî(kî)-sam. As you know, 花旗 is derived from the 'corrupted' pronunciation of First City of 花旗銀行 The First City National Bank, the famous American bank.
The American ginseng is widely cultivated in Wisconsin. Big business up there, heavily invested by Taiwanese and Hong Kong businessmen.
(4) The traditional view is that ginseng is good for everything, especially for increasing vitality and virility 強精補腎. It is OK for children. In Taiwan anybody can have a bowl of sam-á ke 蔘仔雞 (ginseng chicken) at foodstands.
In the old days when ginseng was expensive, it was not given to children because it was thought that children would not appreciate it (placebo effect?) so that it was a waste of money to give to them.
(5) 吃補 are the characters for chiáh pó·, however, this is a little colloquial. In more formal writing, it is 進補. By the way, pó· 補 has a corresponding word in Old Norse:
Old Norse bót has 3 definitions:
(1) 'bettering, cure, remedy' = pó· ióh 補藥
(2) 'atonement, compensation' = pó· sióng / pó· siúnn 補償
(3) 'patch' = pó· (sann khò·) 補衫褲
All 3 definitions of bót are matched by pó· 補.
Heruler
Last edited by Heruler on Thu Oct 05, 2006 1:31 am, edited 2 times in total.