Hi all,
Marco Polo visited Choân-chiu 泉州 when he was embarking on his trip home. He was very impressed by the port city. I would like to share with you his comments about the city and the language spoken there. Not wanting to embarrass myself for my ignorance of any previous discussion about this in this forum, I tried to search the forum for it (that was when I came across niuc's lovely poem), I have not found any yet.
When I brought up the last 2 topics (German research center and Voyager), it turned out they had been discussed before. And for one, I was sorry I was responsible for triggering a verbal storm. So, to avoid stepping on any land mines, I will just ask for clearance in advance. Has the topics of Marco Polo's visit to Choân-chiu been discussed in this forum before?
Heruler
Marco Polo's comments on the language of Choân-chiu
Hi Heruler,
>> Has the topics of Marco Polo's visit to Choân-chiu been
>> discussed in this forum before?
No, I don't think so. My feelings on the matter are: don't worry about it too much - the nature of Forums is that new people come all the time, and a new person can't be expected to comb the Forum minutely for every single reference to a topic. (Nor indeed should the older members be obliged to remember ever single topic which has ever flashed by!).
In my opinion, there's nothing wrong with creating a new thread for an already existing topic (especially if the topic is very old), and also nothing wrong with (occasionally) posting off topic. Nor indeed with the subject under discussion drifting over time. All these things happen all the time on all Forums.
The weirdness was that the person who got so upset about it all was one of the worst culprits. He constantly posted off topic and created dozens of new topics for the same subject. Personally, I'm sorry for the sake of the other readers of the Forum that he seems to have left. He was extremely knowledgeable (which I respected him for). I only hope that the people who benefited from his knowledge had exchanged email addresses with him, and are now able to continue learning from him in private correspondence.
Regards,
Sim.
>> Has the topics of Marco Polo's visit to Choân-chiu been
>> discussed in this forum before?
No, I don't think so. My feelings on the matter are: don't worry about it too much - the nature of Forums is that new people come all the time, and a new person can't be expected to comb the Forum minutely for every single reference to a topic. (Nor indeed should the older members be obliged to remember ever single topic which has ever flashed by!).
In my opinion, there's nothing wrong with creating a new thread for an already existing topic (especially if the topic is very old), and also nothing wrong with (occasionally) posting off topic. Nor indeed with the subject under discussion drifting over time. All these things happen all the time on all Forums.
The weirdness was that the person who got so upset about it all was one of the worst culprits. He constantly posted off topic and created dozens of new topics for the same subject. Personally, I'm sorry for the sake of the other readers of the Forum that he seems to have left. He was extremely knowledgeable (which I respected him for). I only hope that the people who benefited from his knowledge had exchanged email addresses with him, and are now able to continue learning from him in private correspondence.
Regards,
Sim.
Sim,SimL wrote:Hi Heruler,
>> Has the topics of Marco Polo's visit to Choân-chiu been
>> discussed in this forum before?
No, I don't think so. My feelings on the matter are: don't worry about it too much - the nature of Forums is that new people come all the time, and a new person can't be expected to comb the Forum minutely for every single reference to a topic. (Nor indeed should the older members be obliged to remember ever single topic which has ever flashed by!).
In my opinion, there's nothing wrong with creating a new thread for an already existing topic (especially if the topic is very old), and also nothing wrong with (occasionally) posting off topic. Nor indeed with the subject under discussion drifting over time. All these things happen all the time on all Forums.
The weirdness was that the person who got so upset about it all was one of the worst culprits. He constantly posted off topic and created dozens of new topics for the same subject. Personally, I'm sorry for the sake of the other readers of the Forum that he seems to have left. He was extremely knowledgeable (which I respected him for). I only hope that the people who benefited from his knowledge had exchanged email addresses with him, and are now able to continue learning from him in private correspondence.
Regards,
Sim.
You show me what is ang mng sai behaviour . You are extremely rude by calling me a culprits. At least I still haven't done this in any forum no matter how rude that person is.That is why I don't have any English educated friend,I can never understand them.
You said I had created dozens of new topics but everyone can see I had only created 4 or 5 topics in 3 years. The one who done this is Mark. If you want to luan cu seh 乱主说,I don't mind.
You questions about minnan show that you don't have the sincere atitude in learning minnan.Just buy at least 5 dictionary.,all the answers are there.Why the hanzi for sin is 螓 or 蝇 are explained by experts years ago.I can't blame Mark for not buying any books on minnan because he is a hakka.
Forget about this .We Buddhist pratice metta towards people.
The thing I must add is no one should respect me at all regarding minnan language.A guy like me who is not a student from University in China and Taiwan in this field is we call 青盲牛。I even have to go to cuanciu just to make sure those cuanciu sandhi or else I am a guy who cannot even speak my ancestor language. 我苦没汝苦。
The thing I must add is no one should respect me at all regarding minnan language.A guy like me who is not a student from University in China and Taiwan in this field is we call 青盲牛。I even have to go to cuanciu just to make sure those cuanciu sandhi or else I am a guy who cannot even speak my ancestor language. 我苦没汝苦。
I know a lot more about Buddhism than the average person on the street, but I had never heard of this term, so I had to look it up on Google.ong wrote:Forget about this .We Buddhist pratice metta towards people.
http://buddhism.about.com/library/weekly/aa080602a.htm gives:
"Metta usually translated as 'loving kindness' is a quality highly esteemed in Buddhism. Sometimes it is translated as 'good will' but 'loving kindness' seems to capture the spirit of the word more comprehensively - it's about giving oneself selflessly to others, without enmity, without cruelty. Metta is about developing an attitude of mind in which one desires the welfare of all others. But it is also about expressing this in active ways. This doesn't mean that we get up one morning and set about changing the world in some sort of highly dramatic fashion (though of course, there's room for that!), it's more about bringing this selfless attitude into one's daily affairs - the way one interacts with colleagues at work, or with one's family, or even with people we meet on a casual basis. It's trying to get this attitude of mind to permeate everything we do."
Great! I too try to be "Buddhist" (or "Christian", in the general sense of the word). So, I too don't want to have bad feelings toward you either.
I am sorry that this conflict arose between us, and I would like to leave it behind us too. I'm glad that you're posting again.
Nevertheless, you are one of the most knowledgable people to post on this Forum, and I know that most of the other regular readers value your contribution. There may be other people who know more than you, but they don't post here, and specifically, they don't take the time and trouble to address specific questions that *we* ask, whereas you do.ong wrote:The thing I must add is no one should respect me at all regarding minnan language.A guy like me who is not a student from University in China and Taiwan in this field is we call 青盲牛。I even have to go to cuanciu just to make sure those cuanciu sandhi or else I am a guy who cannot even speak my ancestor language. 我苦没汝苦。
Regards,
Sim.
Hi all,
After spending 17 years in Mongol China, Marco Polo, his father Nicolo, and his uncle Maffio (Nicolo's younger brother) obtained permission from Kublai Khan to leave China (ca. 1290). The Khan entrusted them to escort a princess who was to be married to the Ilkhan of Persia. They were to take the sea route and their point of embarkation was Choân-chiu 泉州. At the time the city was known to foreigners as Zayton, which was an Arabic name meaning 'olives'. Marco Polo used this name for the city.
When he came to Zayton, he was astounded to find the great size of its harbor. He said, "it is one of the two greatest havens in the world for commerce." Although he didn't say what the other one was, we know he meant Venice, his home town, for at the time Venice was the largest commercial harbor in Europe.
His statement about the size of Zayton was confirmed by another world traveler, the Arab Ibn Battúta, about 50 years later (Ref. 1):
"The port of Zayton is one of the largest in the world, or perhaps the very largest. I saw in it about a hundred large junks; as for small junks, they could not be counted for multitude."
Back to Marco. He said that in Zayton there was a great abundance of all provision for every necessity of man's life. It was a charming country, and the people were very quiet, and fond of an easy life. (Pretty good!)
The next statement by Marco surprises me the most: "I should tell you that in this city (i.e. of Zayton) they have a peculiar language." He went on to say, "For you must know that throughout all Manzi they employ one speech and one kind of writing only, but yet there are local differences of dialect, as you might say of Genoese, Milanese, Florentines, and Neapolitans, who though they speak different dialects can understand one another."
What he probably meant is that in large part of China, there are differences in dialects much like those in Italy (Genoese, Milanese, etc), but in Zayton, they speak a peculiar language, not like others.
I suspect that, had he gone to Canton (Guangzhou), he would probably have said the same thing about Cantonese too. Cantonese is vastly different from Chinese of the North. Modern scholars such as Li Jingzhong (李敬忠) advocate that Cantonese is an independent language among other Han languages (Ref. 2). From this viewpoint, we can say that Holó (= Hokkien/Taiwanese), whose older version was heard by Marco, is also an independent language.
To summarize Marco's impression about the port-city of Zayton: (1) one of the two greatest seaports of the world, and (2) the language spoken there was rather peculiar in that it was very different from the speech of the North.
Reference 1: Ibn Battúta. Travels in Asia and Africa 1325-1354. Translated and selected by H.A.R. Gibb. Routledge & Kegan Paul Ltd., London, 1929. Pages 287-288.
Reference 2: Li, Jingzhong (1990). Yueyu shi Hanyu zuqun zhong de duli yuyan 粵語是漢語族群中的獨立語言. Yuwen Jianshe Tongxun vol. 27, pages 28-48; vol. 28, pages 27-28.
I welcome your comment and discussion.
Heruler
After spending 17 years in Mongol China, Marco Polo, his father Nicolo, and his uncle Maffio (Nicolo's younger brother) obtained permission from Kublai Khan to leave China (ca. 1290). The Khan entrusted them to escort a princess who was to be married to the Ilkhan of Persia. They were to take the sea route and their point of embarkation was Choân-chiu 泉州. At the time the city was known to foreigners as Zayton, which was an Arabic name meaning 'olives'. Marco Polo used this name for the city.
When he came to Zayton, he was astounded to find the great size of its harbor. He said, "it is one of the two greatest havens in the world for commerce." Although he didn't say what the other one was, we know he meant Venice, his home town, for at the time Venice was the largest commercial harbor in Europe.
His statement about the size of Zayton was confirmed by another world traveler, the Arab Ibn Battúta, about 50 years later (Ref. 1):
"The port of Zayton is one of the largest in the world, or perhaps the very largest. I saw in it about a hundred large junks; as for small junks, they could not be counted for multitude."
Back to Marco. He said that in Zayton there was a great abundance of all provision for every necessity of man's life. It was a charming country, and the people were very quiet, and fond of an easy life. (Pretty good!)
The next statement by Marco surprises me the most: "I should tell you that in this city (i.e. of Zayton) they have a peculiar language." He went on to say, "For you must know that throughout all Manzi they employ one speech and one kind of writing only, but yet there are local differences of dialect, as you might say of Genoese, Milanese, Florentines, and Neapolitans, who though they speak different dialects can understand one another."
What he probably meant is that in large part of China, there are differences in dialects much like those in Italy (Genoese, Milanese, etc), but in Zayton, they speak a peculiar language, not like others.
I suspect that, had he gone to Canton (Guangzhou), he would probably have said the same thing about Cantonese too. Cantonese is vastly different from Chinese of the North. Modern scholars such as Li Jingzhong (李敬忠) advocate that Cantonese is an independent language among other Han languages (Ref. 2). From this viewpoint, we can say that Holó (= Hokkien/Taiwanese), whose older version was heard by Marco, is also an independent language.
To summarize Marco's impression about the port-city of Zayton: (1) one of the two greatest seaports of the world, and (2) the language spoken there was rather peculiar in that it was very different from the speech of the North.
Reference 1: Ibn Battúta. Travels in Asia and Africa 1325-1354. Translated and selected by H.A.R. Gibb. Routledge & Kegan Paul Ltd., London, 1929. Pages 287-288.
Reference 2: Li, Jingzhong (1990). Yueyu shi Hanyu zuqun zhong de duli yuyan 粵語是漢語族群中的獨立語言. Yuwen Jianshe Tongxun vol. 27, pages 28-48; vol. 28, pages 27-28.
I welcome your comment and discussion.
Heruler