The page - http://www.zhongwen.com/x/faq1.htm - talks about how until the 20th Century, “classical chinese” was used as a common means of communication between literate speakers of any dialect. These days, when we say “standard Chinese” we mean the Mandarin dialect. It’s the standard because of population dominance of speakers, and because government has decreed it and promoted it to be so in a unifying way. But is there any other reason why Mandarin is either more ‘Chinese’ or superior to other diaects like Cantonese?
(I’m not trying to be inflammatory. It’s true that I think it’s sad that Cantonese have to write in another dialect, don’t learn there own language in schools, and may sometimes feel like their own dialect is inferior. But I largely accept why it is this way.)
Regards,
rathpy
Standard Chinese
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PPK
Re: Standard Chinese
mandarin is the most 'recent' form of the chinese language. something like latin is to the european languages, all chinese dialects are the different stages of the chinese language. but unlike latin, which combine with other languages and developed into various forms of european languages, the chinese dialects more or less represents a peroidical developement of the chinese language. cantonese is probably so far the known oldest form of chinese pronouciation(yes, only pronouciation) but they used the same chinese writings and chinese grammar that has passed down for more than 2000yrs. they are a dialect now only bcos the chinese people who still used that way of ancient pronouciation had decreased and restricted to a certain area, canton.
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rathpy
Re: Standard Chinese
I mis-pasted the web page address above - it should be:
http://www.zhongwen.com/x/faq13.htm - Here it is partly reproduced:
<<<
Do the different dialects have different writing systems?
Native speakers of Mandarin often claim that other dialects do not have a writing system. In fact, until this century most Chinese writing was in the classical 文言文 form which is different from all the modern spoken dialects. Literate speakers of any of the dialects could read ancient classical texts and also communicate with each other in the classical manner. The situation was similar to that of Latin among European intellectuals before vernacular writing became popular, except literacy was more widespread in China, so the classical writing did more to promote cultural and linguistic unity. [...]
The surge of vernacular 白話文 writing early this century was mostly in Mandarin and closely-related dialects. Since the Nationalists and then the Communists aggressively promoted Mandarin-based 白話文 as the standard form of writing nation-wide, vernacular written traditions did not fully develop in Cantonese and other dialects to replace 文言文, leaving speakers of these dialects with essentially no written language despite their rich classical Chinese traditions. [...]
>>>
PPK, you compared Latin to Mandarin, but the quote compares Latin to Classical Chinese, so I'm confused. And how "recent" is Mandarin?
Up until the 20th century, wasn't Mandarin already existing as 'just another dialect'?
Why wasn't "Classical Chinese" (as per the mentioned web page) promoted by the authorities as the official language instead of Mandarin?
Regards,
rathpy
http://www.zhongwen.com/x/faq13.htm - Here it is partly reproduced:
<<<
Do the different dialects have different writing systems?
Native speakers of Mandarin often claim that other dialects do not have a writing system. In fact, until this century most Chinese writing was in the classical 文言文 form which is different from all the modern spoken dialects. Literate speakers of any of the dialects could read ancient classical texts and also communicate with each other in the classical manner. The situation was similar to that of Latin among European intellectuals before vernacular writing became popular, except literacy was more widespread in China, so the classical writing did more to promote cultural and linguistic unity. [...]
The surge of vernacular 白話文 writing early this century was mostly in Mandarin and closely-related dialects. Since the Nationalists and then the Communists aggressively promoted Mandarin-based 白話文 as the standard form of writing nation-wide, vernacular written traditions did not fully develop in Cantonese and other dialects to replace 文言文, leaving speakers of these dialects with essentially no written language despite their rich classical Chinese traditions. [...]
>>>
PPK, you compared Latin to Mandarin, but the quote compares Latin to Classical Chinese, so I'm confused. And how "recent" is Mandarin?
Up until the 20th century, wasn't Mandarin already existing as 'just another dialect'?
Why wasn't "Classical Chinese" (as per the mentioned web page) promoted by the authorities as the official language instead of Mandarin?
Regards,
rathpy
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Sebastian Hew
Re: Standard Chinese
<<< mandarin is the most 'recent' form of the chinese language. something like latin is to the european languages, all chinese dialects are the different stages of the chinese language. but unlike latin, which combine with other languages and developed into various forms of european languages, the chinese dialects more or less represents a peroidical developement of the chinese language. cantonese is probably so far the known oldest form of chinese pronouciation(yes, only pronouciation) but they used the same chinese writings and chinese grammar that has passed down for more than 2000yrs. they are a dialect now only bcos the chinese people who still used that way of ancient pronouciation had decreased and restricted to a certain area, canton. >>>
There is little justification for the cliam than Mandarin is in any way 'the most recent form of Chinese', or, indeed, that it is any older than Cantonese. They are both modern Chinese languages, descendants of an earlier form of Chinese, and cannot be regarded as anything other than coeval. It is perhaps true that, of all the modern Chinese dialects, Cantonese has best preserved the phonology of Middle Chinese, especially the finals and tones, but this does not imply that it is in any sense 'older' than Mandarin. Indeed, Cantonese has simplified the Middle Chinese system of initials more than Mandarin has.
The claim that Cantonese is the 'oldest form of Chinese pronunciation' is also tenuous. Although Cantonese phonology may be closest to that of Tang-dynasty 唐 Chinese, there are other modern Chinese languages which have preserved pre-Tang features. For instance, many Min 閩 languages have preserved the old b- initial in words like 肥, which has changed to f- in Cantonese and Mandarin.
I'm afraid the idea that Cantonese is somehow the 'oldest' of the modern Chinese languages is but an oft-perpetuated myth. Cantonese is a modern Chinese language that is descended from Middle Chinese, just as Mandarin is, and both have undergone significant changes since the Tang dynasty. There is little basis for the idea that the modern Chinese languages represent 'periodical development of the Chinese language'.
Sebastian.
There is little justification for the cliam than Mandarin is in any way 'the most recent form of Chinese', or, indeed, that it is any older than Cantonese. They are both modern Chinese languages, descendants of an earlier form of Chinese, and cannot be regarded as anything other than coeval. It is perhaps true that, of all the modern Chinese dialects, Cantonese has best preserved the phonology of Middle Chinese, especially the finals and tones, but this does not imply that it is in any sense 'older' than Mandarin. Indeed, Cantonese has simplified the Middle Chinese system of initials more than Mandarin has.
The claim that Cantonese is the 'oldest form of Chinese pronunciation' is also tenuous. Although Cantonese phonology may be closest to that of Tang-dynasty 唐 Chinese, there are other modern Chinese languages which have preserved pre-Tang features. For instance, many Min 閩 languages have preserved the old b- initial in words like 肥, which has changed to f- in Cantonese and Mandarin.
I'm afraid the idea that Cantonese is somehow the 'oldest' of the modern Chinese languages is but an oft-perpetuated myth. Cantonese is a modern Chinese language that is descended from Middle Chinese, just as Mandarin is, and both have undergone significant changes since the Tang dynasty. There is little basis for the idea that the modern Chinese languages represent 'periodical development of the Chinese language'.
Sebastian.
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Sebastian Hew
Re: Standard Chinese
<<< mandarin is the most 'recent' form of the chinese language. something like latin is to the european languages, all chinese dialects are the different stages of the chinese language. but unlike latin, which combine with other languages and developed into various forms of european languages, the chinese dialects more or less represents a peroidical developement of the chinese language. cantonese is probably so far the known oldest form of chinese pronouciation(yes, only pronouciation) but they used the same chinese writings and chinese grammar that has passed down for more than 2000yrs. they are a dialect now only bcos the chinese people who still used that way of ancient pronouciation had decreased and restricted to a certain area, canton. >>>
There is little justification for the cliam than Mandarin is in any way 'the most recent form of Chinese', or, indeed, that it is any older than Cantonese. They are both modern Chinese languages, descendants of an earlier form of Chinese, and cannot be regarded as anything other than coeval. It is perhaps true that, of all the modern Chinese dialects, Cantonese has best preserved the phonology of Middle Chinese, especially the finals and tones, but this does not imply that it is in any sense 'older' than Mandarin. Indeed, Cantonese has simplified the Middle Chinese system of initials more than Mandarin has.
The claim that Cantonese is the 'oldest form of Chinese pronunciation' is also tenuous. Although Cantonese phonology may be closest to that of Tang-dynasty 唐 Chinese, there are other modern Chinese languages which have preserved pre-Tang features. For instance, many Min 閩 languages have preserved the old b- initial in words like 肥, which has changed to f- in Cantonese and Mandarin.
I'm afraid the idea that Cantonese is somehow the 'oldest' of the modern Chinese languages is but an oft-perpetuated myth. Cantonese is a modern Chinese language that is descended from Middle Chinese, just as Mandarin is, and both have undergone significant changes since the Tang dynasty. There is little basis for the idea that the modern Chinese languages represent 'periodical development of the Chinese language'.
Sebastian.
There is little justification for the cliam than Mandarin is in any way 'the most recent form of Chinese', or, indeed, that it is any older than Cantonese. They are both modern Chinese languages, descendants of an earlier form of Chinese, and cannot be regarded as anything other than coeval. It is perhaps true that, of all the modern Chinese dialects, Cantonese has best preserved the phonology of Middle Chinese, especially the finals and tones, but this does not imply that it is in any sense 'older' than Mandarin. Indeed, Cantonese has simplified the Middle Chinese system of initials more than Mandarin has.
The claim that Cantonese is the 'oldest form of Chinese pronunciation' is also tenuous. Although Cantonese phonology may be closest to that of Tang-dynasty 唐 Chinese, there are other modern Chinese languages which have preserved pre-Tang features. For instance, many Min 閩 languages have preserved the old b- initial in words like 肥, which has changed to f- in Cantonese and Mandarin.
I'm afraid the idea that Cantonese is somehow the 'oldest' of the modern Chinese languages is but an oft-perpetuated myth. Cantonese is a modern Chinese language that is descended from Middle Chinese, just as Mandarin is, and both have undergone significant changes since the Tang dynasty. There is little basis for the idea that the modern Chinese languages represent 'periodical development of the Chinese language'.
Sebastian.
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Sebastian Hew
Re: Standard Chinese
> Up until the 20th century, wasn't Mandarin already existing as 'just another dialect'?
It depends on precisely what you mean by 'Mandarin', but the answer, glossing over many technicalities is, essentially, yes. Mandarin was just another dialect that existed in parallel with Cantonese (Mandarin in the north, Cantonese in the far south).
Strictly speaking, Mandarin 官話 was the (spoken) administrative language of China in the late dynasties. It began to develop in the Liao 遼, Jin 金 and 元 dynasties, and arising from the Nanking 南京 dialect. During the late Ming 明 and Qing 清, imperial examination 科舉 candidates from the south (閩粵) were required to learn 官話.
However, this oral language of the civil service is not usually what is meant by ‘Mandarin’ these days. To-day, it generally refers to one of two things: the language of Peking, or more generally, of northern China; and the official language of China. In the former usage, ‘Mandarin’ 北方話 refers to the Mandarin language, in analogy to the Min 閩 and Yue 粵 languages, i.e., it refers to the group of related dialects spoken throughout north-eastern and south-western China. The administrative language 官話 arose from the Nanking dialect within this group. The dialect of contemporary Peking is also included in this group. Secondly, ‘Mandarin’ is used to refer to the official language of the PRC 共和國 (and perhaps the ROC 民國, though there are differences), often called ‘Modern Standard Chinese’, variously 國語, 漢謹, 華語, 普通話, esp. the last in communist China. Whilst this is based on the Peking 北京 dialect of Mandarin, Modern Standard Chinese (MSC) is a wholly artificial language. It was not identical to the Peking dialect, and, when it was created, it had no native speakers. Even to-day, it’s native speakers tend not to be in areas where Mandarin dialects are spoken, e.g., Peking, etc., but where MSC has make particularly big inroads, e.g., in Shanghai, where many households have adopted MSC in place of Shanghainese. Inhabitants of Peking typically speak the Peking dialect (which is very similar to MSC) natively.
> Why wasn't "Classical Chinese" promoted by the authorities as the official language instead of Mandarin?
Classical Chinese 文言文 refers to the language of the canonical literature and the official (written) language of the administration. Until the middle of the last century, all official documents were written in Classical Chinese. It arose from (although not necessarily identical to) spoken Old Chinese some two millennia ago, and, whereas the spoken form had continued to evolve and diverge, the written form continued largely unchanged, and in later dynasties, the language of the earlier period was consciously imitated. Thus, classical Chinese continued as a ‘dead’ language long after it ceased to have native speakers. In many respects, it served the purpose Latin did in Europe throughout the Middle Ages. It served as a unifying force in China, for, although the people spoke disparate dialects, which ultimately evolved into separate languages as Latin did into French, Spanish, Italian, etc., they all wrote, insofar as they did write, in Classical Chinese.
Classical Chinese is unsuitable as the official language of the country for several reasons. 1) It was difficult to learn, which was fine when literacy was confined to the government officials and the aristocracy, who could devote the time and effort necessary, but universal literacy in Classical Chinese would have been difficult to achieve. 2) There is no spoken standard for Classical Chinese. Speakers of the various modern Chinese dialects would have read the text using the pronunciations from their own dialect. 3) Irrespective of the dialect, Classical Chinese is more-or-less unintelligible when read aloud due to the massive homonymy in modern Chiense languages, and also to the cryptic style that characterises classical Chinese.
Sebastian.
It depends on precisely what you mean by 'Mandarin', but the answer, glossing over many technicalities is, essentially, yes. Mandarin was just another dialect that existed in parallel with Cantonese (Mandarin in the north, Cantonese in the far south).
Strictly speaking, Mandarin 官話 was the (spoken) administrative language of China in the late dynasties. It began to develop in the Liao 遼, Jin 金 and 元 dynasties, and arising from the Nanking 南京 dialect. During the late Ming 明 and Qing 清, imperial examination 科舉 candidates from the south (閩粵) were required to learn 官話.
However, this oral language of the civil service is not usually what is meant by ‘Mandarin’ these days. To-day, it generally refers to one of two things: the language of Peking, or more generally, of northern China; and the official language of China. In the former usage, ‘Mandarin’ 北方話 refers to the Mandarin language, in analogy to the Min 閩 and Yue 粵 languages, i.e., it refers to the group of related dialects spoken throughout north-eastern and south-western China. The administrative language 官話 arose from the Nanking dialect within this group. The dialect of contemporary Peking is also included in this group. Secondly, ‘Mandarin’ is used to refer to the official language of the PRC 共和國 (and perhaps the ROC 民國, though there are differences), often called ‘Modern Standard Chinese’, variously 國語, 漢謹, 華語, 普通話, esp. the last in communist China. Whilst this is based on the Peking 北京 dialect of Mandarin, Modern Standard Chinese (MSC) is a wholly artificial language. It was not identical to the Peking dialect, and, when it was created, it had no native speakers. Even to-day, it’s native speakers tend not to be in areas where Mandarin dialects are spoken, e.g., Peking, etc., but where MSC has make particularly big inroads, e.g., in Shanghai, where many households have adopted MSC in place of Shanghainese. Inhabitants of Peking typically speak the Peking dialect (which is very similar to MSC) natively.
> Why wasn't "Classical Chinese" promoted by the authorities as the official language instead of Mandarin?
Classical Chinese 文言文 refers to the language of the canonical literature and the official (written) language of the administration. Until the middle of the last century, all official documents were written in Classical Chinese. It arose from (although not necessarily identical to) spoken Old Chinese some two millennia ago, and, whereas the spoken form had continued to evolve and diverge, the written form continued largely unchanged, and in later dynasties, the language of the earlier period was consciously imitated. Thus, classical Chinese continued as a ‘dead’ language long after it ceased to have native speakers. In many respects, it served the purpose Latin did in Europe throughout the Middle Ages. It served as a unifying force in China, for, although the people spoke disparate dialects, which ultimately evolved into separate languages as Latin did into French, Spanish, Italian, etc., they all wrote, insofar as they did write, in Classical Chinese.
Classical Chinese is unsuitable as the official language of the country for several reasons. 1) It was difficult to learn, which was fine when literacy was confined to the government officials and the aristocracy, who could devote the time and effort necessary, but universal literacy in Classical Chinese would have been difficult to achieve. 2) There is no spoken standard for Classical Chinese. Speakers of the various modern Chinese dialects would have read the text using the pronunciations from their own dialect. 3) Irrespective of the dialect, Classical Chinese is more-or-less unintelligible when read aloud due to the massive homonymy in modern Chiense languages, and also to the cryptic style that characterises classical Chinese.
Sebastian.
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PPK
Re: Standard Chinese
rathpy, mandarin all chinese dialects shared the same chinese writing. its just that the pronouciation for the chinese writing changed thru history. a lot of the 'root words' in dailects used old chinese terms that are no longer in used by present chinese and a lot of people doesnt know them anymore, and out of ignorance tey claimed that dialects have no writing system. in fact, chinese have ard 60 000 words in total but we used 3000-5000 daily nowadays. a lot of obsolete words or terms are actually still being used in dialects, just that ppl dont know how to write them or read them anymore.
sebastian, i am only talking about the pronouciation part, not the whole language itself. for chinese pronouciation, the present mandarin had a history of only 700+yrs max. but for cantonese and other dialects they existed for a long time, althou ancient cantonese is still a little different from the present day cantonese.
sebastian, i am only talking about the pronouciation part, not the whole language itself. for chinese pronouciation, the present mandarin had a history of only 700+yrs max. but for cantonese and other dialects they existed for a long time, althou ancient cantonese is still a little different from the present day cantonese.