Hi Heruler
Thank you for sharing the story about Marco Polo and 泉州 Cuanciu. Political agenda aside, it's quite clear to many people that Hokkien/Minnan [or Cantonese, Hakka, etc] is a Chinese language distinct from Mandarin, not merely a Chinese dialect. Nowadays I think many people have come to realize that Sichuan Mandarin and Beijing Mandarin are dialects of Mandarin, Cuanciu Hokkien and Ciangciu Hokkien are dialects of Hokkien, but Hokkien and Mandarin are separate languages [of the same family].
Marco Polo's comments on the language of Choân-chiu
Hi niuc,
Thanks to your posting in another thread, I just learned from your geocity Web site (set up years ago) that you had already touched on the subject of dialects vs languages. I agreed with your viewpoint expressed in your Web site that the various Han languages in China should be considered as separate languages (not dialects) in the Sinitic (Chinese) family. [Because the term 'Chinese' may have different connotations, it's probably better to use the linguistic term 'Sinitic'.]
The usual definition of 'dialect' vis-a-vis 'language' is that dialects are mutually intelligible (comprehensible), whereas languages are not. This definition meets with difficulty when the Scandinavian languages are cited. Danish, Norwegian and Swedish peoples can comminicate with each other using their own languages. So another definition of 'language' is that it is a national language. That definition breaks down too. Consider Provençal spoken in the south of France. It is different from the official French, yet not a national language. So what is it, dialect or language? Then, we have the case of Catalan, separate from Spanish (Castillian), which is spoken in parts of Spain and France. It is a language separate from Spanish and French. The best way to categorize them is to group them under the umbrella of Romance langauge family, without regards to national political boundaries.
So Holó is a language in the Sinitic family, spoken in the southeast coast of China (including southern Zhejiang, Fujian, Guangdong, and Hainan), Taiwan, and overseas Holó communities in Southeast Asia as well as southern California.
Heruler
Thanks to your posting in another thread, I just learned from your geocity Web site (set up years ago) that you had already touched on the subject of dialects vs languages. I agreed with your viewpoint expressed in your Web site that the various Han languages in China should be considered as separate languages (not dialects) in the Sinitic (Chinese) family. [Because the term 'Chinese' may have different connotations, it's probably better to use the linguistic term 'Sinitic'.]
The usual definition of 'dialect' vis-a-vis 'language' is that dialects are mutually intelligible (comprehensible), whereas languages are not. This definition meets with difficulty when the Scandinavian languages are cited. Danish, Norwegian and Swedish peoples can comminicate with each other using their own languages. So another definition of 'language' is that it is a national language. That definition breaks down too. Consider Provençal spoken in the south of France. It is different from the official French, yet not a national language. So what is it, dialect or language? Then, we have the case of Catalan, separate from Spanish (Castillian), which is spoken in parts of Spain and France. It is a language separate from Spanish and French. The best way to categorize them is to group them under the umbrella of Romance langauge family, without regards to national political boundaries.
So Holó is a language in the Sinitic family, spoken in the southeast coast of China (including southern Zhejiang, Fujian, Guangdong, and Hainan), Taiwan, and overseas Holó communities in Southeast Asia as well as southern California.
Heruler
Hi Heruler
Regarding my geocity pages on dialects vs languages or romanization, actually I had never posted them in this forum. There are errors there, hopefully they don't give too bad an impression.
You are right that it's better to use the term Sinitic since Chinese is usually used to refer to Mandarin. Regarding the distinction between language and dialect, some sum it well in a sentence: "a language is a dialect with an army". How true!
(a ironic laugh!)
Regarding my geocity pages on dialects vs languages or romanization, actually I had never posted them in this forum. There are errors there, hopefully they don't give too bad an impression.
You are right that it's better to use the term Sinitic since Chinese is usually used to refer to Mandarin. Regarding the distinction between language and dialect, some sum it well in a sentence: "a language is a dialect with an army". How true!
(a ironic laugh!)