Penang Hokkien

Discussions on the Hokkien (Minnan) language.
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Andrew

Post by Andrew »

I am going to rewrite my Wikipedia article on Penang Hokkien which was based on our belief that Penang Hokkien was based on the Haicheng (Longhai county) pronunciation. A lot of the comparisons were also based on the Zhangzhou standard. Based on what Hong has told me, I now know that Haicheng is far too far south, and the correct dialect area is between Amoy and Zhangzhou, around Xinglin, Jiaomei and Haicang.

Currently I have:
3 Differences from standard Minnan
Most of the differences between Penang Hokkien and Amoy Hokkien exist also in Zhangzhou, e.g.:

1. The use of -uiⁿ where Amoy has -ng, e.g. 門 muiⁿ5, 飯 puiⁿ7, 酸 suiⁿ1, etc.;
2. The use of -ε and -εⁿ where Amoy has -e and -iⁿ, e.g. 家 kε1, 蝦 hε5, 生 sεⁿ1;
3. The use of -oe where Amoy has -e and vice versa, e.g. 火 hoe2, 未 boe7, 細 se3;
4. The use of -oa where Amoy has -oe, e.g. 話 oa7, 花 hoa1, 瓜 koa1;
5. The use of -iơⁿ(in Penang sometimes -iauⁿ) where Amoy has -iuⁿ, e.g. 羊 iơⁿ5, 丈 tiơⁿ7, 想 siơⁿ7;
6. The use of -iang where Amoy has -iong, e.g. 上 siang7, 香 hiang1;
7. The use of j- in some words where Amoy has l-, e.g. 入 jip8, 熱 joah8, 日 jit8;
8. The use of Zhangzhou pronunciations such as 糜 moai5 (Amoy: be5), 先生 sin1-sεⁿ1 (Amoy: sien1-siⁿ1), etc.;
9. The use of Zhangzhou expressions such as 挑羹 th(i)au1-kiong1 (Amoy: 湯匙 thng1-si5)

4 Differences from the Zhangzhou dialect

Although Penang Hokkien is obviously based on the Zhangzhou dialect, there are some obvious differences, which in many cases result from the influence of other Minnan dialects, e.g.:

10. The lower-entering (8th) tone in Penang, which is pronounced high [5] as in Amoy and many other parts of Fujian, whereas in most Zhangzhou dialects it is low with a slight lilt [12];
11. The use of -u in some words such as 汝 lu2, 豬 tu1, 魚 hu5, etc., where Zhangzhou has li2, ti1 and hi5. This is a characteristic of dialects in other parts of Zhangzhou and Xiamen prefectures.
12. The adoption of pronunciations from Teochew: e.g. 我 wa2 (Zhangzhou: goa2), 我人 uang21, 汝人 luang21, 伊人 iang1 (Zhangzhou and Amoy: 阮 gun2 / guan2, 恁 lin2, [亻因] in1)
13. The adoption of Amoy and Quanzhou pronunciations like 否勢 phaiⁿ2-se3 (Zhangzhou: bai2 / phaiⁿ2-si3), 百 pah8 (Zhangzhou: pεh8), etc.
14. The use of unique variants such as 甚物 haⁿ2-mih8 (Longhai: aⁿ2-mih8; Zhangzhou: saⁿ2-mih8 or siaⁿ2-mih8).

I need to completely rewrite the comparisons to be based on one of these three areas instead of Zhangzhou. For that, first, I need to know which is the closest. I have numbered the comparisons 1-14, and would be grateful if anyone who knows, but particularly Hong, could say which of these are the same or different to Xinglin/Jiaomei/Haicang.

Secondly, I need to cite a source. Is there one book that has the required information? I have looked at the 閩台方言的源流与嬗變 but it doesn't seem to go down to that level of geographical detail.

There is a map of Fujian http://www.0833.net/cntop/cnimg/fujian.jpg here, for anyone who wants to look at the places being discussed.[/quote]
ong
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Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2006 6:04 am

Post by ong »

We have to blame those scholars and students in China for not doing their job.Even just one 100 pages master degree will be good enough. kak bue 美 and hai cang first tone is 34 like ciangciu city but hing nann 杏林 is 44.厦门方言志 should give us details about their tone and vocaburaly but they just didn't care.
Just remember I said here that 海澄 in Penang or malaysia are not from that town but from 海沧 who speak lu.
ong
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Re: Penang Hokkien

Post by ong »

Niuc wrote:One is chiq/chik/cikq... in Tibetan (http://www.zompist.com/sino.htm#sino ), so cit8 is of Sino-tibetan origin. �� pronounced as cit8 may be related to �� cik4 (candle, the right part of this character in traditional font is ��). It's pronounced as siok8 for Shu Kingdom.
The truth is minnan use tsik 蜀(古楚语)and tsit http://140.111.1.40/yitic/frc/frc08969.htm together 400 years ago.We can see both in spanish minnan dictionary .
Henning
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Re: Penang Hokkien

Post by Henning »

Dear Ong,

interesting that you mention a Spanish Minnan dictionary written some 400 years ago. Which dictionary are you exactly referring to?

Henning

[quote="ong"][quote="Niuc"]One is chiq/chik/cikq... in Tibetan (http://www.zompist.com/sino.htm#sino ), so cit8 is of Sino-tibetan origin. �� pronounced as cit8 may be related to �� cik4 (candle, the right part of this character in traditional font is ��). It's pronounced as siok8 for Shu Kingdom.[/quote]
The truth is minnan use tsik 蜀(古楚语)and tsit http://140.111.1.40/yitic/frc/frc08969.htm together 400 years ago.We can see both in spanish minnan dictionary .[/quote]
SimL
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Re: Penang Hokkien

Post by SimL »

Hi All,

I was idly reading old threads on the Minnan Forum this evening, and came across this one about Trengganu Hokkien, dated December 2006 (just a few replies above):
Tan Lay-Lynn wrote:... rice is pnui instead of peng (like in Malacca Hokkien), chicken is kay instead of koay, fire is huey instead of her, photographs are siow eng instead of siong and who is chuchui (or chui chui) instead of tiang. I understand that spoon in Penang Hokkien is kau keong or something, but we call it tayng see (a little different from theng see as spoken by southerners). [...]
The bolded emphasis is mine, because after calling it "fo1-to2" for the last 30 years (my bad!), I had totally forgotten "siow eng"!!! I remembered my maternal grandparents' more "Amoyish" term for it ("siong3"), and that is what I kept calling them when speaking Hokkien to Ah-bin when he was here in the Netherlands. So, I was very happy to be reminded of this "proper" 8) Penang Hokkien word for it!

My question is: what are the characters which should be used to write it?

In fact, we pronounced it "sO1-eng2" (first syllable written with sandhi-tone), but I'm pretty sure the "sO" is a very elided form of something. My guess is that the "eng2" is . Could it perhaps be a very elided form of "siON7-eng2" or "siauN7-eng2", where "siON7/siauN7" might be a colloquial pronunciation of ? To me, 像影 would make sense for "photograph".
Ah-bin
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Re: Penang Hokkien

Post by Ah-bin »

To me, 像影 would make sense for "photograph".
It does make sense, but I think it's probably 相 as 像 would be read chiauN in kong-wa-im.

照相 is one of the ways to say it in Mandarin. The 相 is 去聲 so that exlains the tonal resemblance to 像
SimL
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Re: Penang Hokkien

Post by SimL »

Right, thanks. 相影 it is then.
SimL
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Re: Penang Hokkien

Post by SimL »

[Moved to own new topic]
SimL
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Re: Penang Hokkien

Post by SimL »

We've had "ha-ku" (= "formerly", "in the old days") which is very commonly said. I think is written 許久.

I just remembered another word "cia-ku" (exactly the same tones as "ha-ku"), which means "nowadays, these days".

Quite an interesting pair in Penang Hokkien, as it doesn't have the very common Amoy "hia5" (= "there") and "cia5" (= "here").

Do any other variants have "cia-ku"? It sounds very Penang Hokkien to me.
niuc
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Re: Penang Hokkien

Post by niuc »

In my variant, 'hia4-ku2' or 'hia4-ni1-ku2' means "very long time" (literally: "that long time"), 'cia4-ku2' or 'cia4-ni1-ku2' means the same thing (literally: "this long time"). It is interesting to see their paralels in Mandarin 那麼久 and 這麼久, also Indonesian "begitu lama" and "begini lama".

For "in the old days", I usually say 'ku7-ca2' 舊早 or 'ting2-pai2' 頂[擺]. Another term 'ko`2-ca2' 古早 have similar meaning but for longer time ago, usually in the ancient times. For nowadays, I usually just say 'ce2' (not sure about its origin) or 'cue3-kun7' 最近 (more literary).
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