I once read that there is no 'sh' sound in Cantonese. But a couple of sources I have come across distinguish that some word initials are 's' and some are 'sh', so there must be something to it. Is this old, or regional... ?
cite:
- "A Pocket Dictionary of Cantonese" by Roy T. Cowels, 1914
- "Everyday Cantonese Conversation" 1972
Regards,
rathpy
'sh' sound in Cantonese
-
Thomas Chan
Re: 'sh' sound in Cantonese
rathpy wrote:
>
> I once read that there is no 'sh' sound in Cantonese. But a
> couple of sources I have come across distinguish that some
> word initials are 's' and some are 'sh', so there must be
> something to it. Is this old, or regional... ?
> cite:
> - "A Pocket Dictionary of Cantonese" by Roy T. Cowels, 1914
> - "Everyday Cantonese Conversation" 1972
It's partially old, partially regional. The distinction was once made, but it
disappeared by the 1940s. Also, early authors sometimes knowingly
or unknowingly incorporated features of neighboring dialects that weren't
present in standard Cantonese.
Hence, Cowles 1914 is understandable, but the 1972 book--who wrote
that? Is it a reprint of an older book, or a latter edition that was not
carefully updated?
Having said that, there is an unrelated possibility for a "sh" sound in
contemporary standard Cantonese, but that is the result of a high front
vowel palatalizing the "s", e.g., syu1 'book' might be pronounced with an
initial like "sh" rather than "s"--certainly, not to be regarded as a regular
distinction between two initials.
Thomas Chan
tc31@cornell.edu
>
> I once read that there is no 'sh' sound in Cantonese. But a
> couple of sources I have come across distinguish that some
> word initials are 's' and some are 'sh', so there must be
> something to it. Is this old, or regional... ?
> cite:
> - "A Pocket Dictionary of Cantonese" by Roy T. Cowels, 1914
> - "Everyday Cantonese Conversation" 1972
It's partially old, partially regional. The distinction was once made, but it
disappeared by the 1940s. Also, early authors sometimes knowingly
or unknowingly incorporated features of neighboring dialects that weren't
present in standard Cantonese.
Hence, Cowles 1914 is understandable, but the 1972 book--who wrote
that? Is it a reprint of an older book, or a latter edition that was not
carefully updated?
Having said that, there is an unrelated possibility for a "sh" sound in
contemporary standard Cantonese, but that is the result of a high front
vowel palatalizing the "s", e.g., syu1 'book' might be pronounced with an
initial like "sh" rather than "s"--certainly, not to be regarded as a regular
distinction between two initials.
Thomas Chan
tc31@cornell.edu
-
Jerry B
Re: 'sh' sound in Cantonese
Similar to Thomas' example, I sometimes hear a soft "sh"-like sound when the word for "sour," or "syun1" is pronounced, as in "ni di pihnggwo taai syun." Or, for the word "boat," or "syuhn." If I listened more closely perhaps I would begin to distinguish between a true "sh" sound and the "syu" sound that is really being spoken.
-
rathpy
Re: 'sh' sound in Cantonese
Thomas,
The "Everyday Cantonese Conversation" kit was first published in 1972, and revised 1987 and 1995. ISBN 997190702X, Published by Intellectual Publishing Co. Hong Kong/Singapore/Malaysia, printed by Chin Chang Press, edited by IPC Editorial Board, revised and annotated by Professor Huang Xixiang. It's a funny book & tape - it has romanisation, Chinese traditional characters, English and Japanese characters for everything, but the romanisation is not explained, and there are no tone markings!
Here are some examples reproduced from the book:
san sin - fresh
saan po - take a walk
shang kwoh - fruit
shaang i - business
sai - wash
shai kaai - world
tin shi - television
shi cheung - market
shi kan - time
yau sik - rest
chi sin - extension
tin fung shin - electric fan
sing - star
shoh tsoi - vegetable
shong faai - pleasant
shuk - ripe
yam sun - message
shau yam kei - radio
oo seung - each other
seung paan faat - try to think of ways, manage
toh sho - most
shue fuk - comforatable
suet - snow
chi shuen - paper boat
sui iu - need
shui tsoi - flood
lo shui - dew
shui yeuk - weak
sz tsing - something
kung sz - company
... A lot of different finals seem to have 's' and 'sh' initials.
... It should be noted that the 'sh's are actually pronounced that way on the tape.
I didn't note which words had 'sh' when I had access to Cowles' dictionary yesterday, but I do remember sap6 'ten' was one of them.
I actually have third source that uses 'sh' - "A Guide to Cantonese (Self-taught)" by Y. C. Yuen, printed by Shung Man Printing Press, Koowloon (1971?). The romanisation scheme is not named, but I'm pretty sure it's Meyer-Wempe (from examining all the pronunciation guide examples). Unfortunately, pronunciation examples are not given for 's' or 'sh' initials.
Regards,
rathpy
The "Everyday Cantonese Conversation" kit was first published in 1972, and revised 1987 and 1995. ISBN 997190702X, Published by Intellectual Publishing Co. Hong Kong/Singapore/Malaysia, printed by Chin Chang Press, edited by IPC Editorial Board, revised and annotated by Professor Huang Xixiang. It's a funny book & tape - it has romanisation, Chinese traditional characters, English and Japanese characters for everything, but the romanisation is not explained, and there are no tone markings!
Here are some examples reproduced from the book:
san sin - fresh
saan po - take a walk
shang kwoh - fruit
shaang i - business
sai - wash
shai kaai - world
tin shi - television
shi cheung - market
shi kan - time
yau sik - rest
chi sin - extension
tin fung shin - electric fan
sing - star
shoh tsoi - vegetable
shong faai - pleasant
shuk - ripe
yam sun - message
shau yam kei - radio
oo seung - each other
seung paan faat - try to think of ways, manage
toh sho - most
shue fuk - comforatable
suet - snow
chi shuen - paper boat
sui iu - need
shui tsoi - flood
lo shui - dew
shui yeuk - weak
sz tsing - something
kung sz - company
... A lot of different finals seem to have 's' and 'sh' initials.
... It should be noted that the 'sh's are actually pronounced that way on the tape.
I didn't note which words had 'sh' when I had access to Cowles' dictionary yesterday, but I do remember sap6 'ten' was one of them.
I actually have third source that uses 'sh' - "A Guide to Cantonese (Self-taught)" by Y. C. Yuen, printed by Shung Man Printing Press, Koowloon (1971?). The romanisation scheme is not named, but I'm pretty sure it's Meyer-Wempe (from examining all the pronunciation guide examples). Unfortunately, pronunciation examples are not given for 's' or 'sh' initials.
Regards,
rathpy
-
Thomas Chan
Re: 'sh' sound in Cantonese
rathpy wrote:
>
> The "Everyday Cantonese Conversation" kit was first published
> in 1972, and revised 1987 and 1995. ISBN 997190702X,
> Published by Intellectual Publishing Co. Hong
> Kong/Singapore/Malaysia, printed by Chin Chang Press, edited
> by IPC Editorial Board, revised and annotated by Professor
> Huang Xixiang. It's a funny book & tape - it has
> romanisation, Chinese traditional characters, English and
> Japanese characters for everything, but the romanisation is
> not explained, and there are no tone markings!
Hmm, from the ISBN I can tell that the book was not published in Hong
Kong (HK books start with 962-). Perhaps Singapore or Malaysia, then.
"IPC Editorial Board" sounds familiar, but I'm not sure where I heard it
before.
It seems the book must be targeting learners who speak English,
Japanese, or other Chinese languages. Originally, I would've said
that maybe the author just grabbed the romanization from an older
dictionary without realizing it, but you say they are pronounced that
way on the tape, which is surely odd. Either the speaker is old enough
and retains pre-1940s pronunciation, or speaks a "non-standard" dialect
where the distinction is still preserved. Certainly the distinction should
not be imitated for purposes of learning HK Cantonese...
>
> The "Everyday Cantonese Conversation" kit was first published
> in 1972, and revised 1987 and 1995. ISBN 997190702X,
> Published by Intellectual Publishing Co. Hong
> Kong/Singapore/Malaysia, printed by Chin Chang Press, edited
> by IPC Editorial Board, revised and annotated by Professor
> Huang Xixiang. It's a funny book & tape - it has
> romanisation, Chinese traditional characters, English and
> Japanese characters for everything, but the romanisation is
> not explained, and there are no tone markings!
Hmm, from the ISBN I can tell that the book was not published in Hong
Kong (HK books start with 962-). Perhaps Singapore or Malaysia, then.
"IPC Editorial Board" sounds familiar, but I'm not sure where I heard it
before.
It seems the book must be targeting learners who speak English,
Japanese, or other Chinese languages. Originally, I would've said
that maybe the author just grabbed the romanization from an older
dictionary without realizing it, but you say they are pronounced that
way on the tape, which is surely odd. Either the speaker is old enough
and retains pre-1940s pronunciation, or speaks a "non-standard" dialect
where the distinction is still preserved. Certainly the distinction should
not be imitated for purposes of learning HK Cantonese...
- > ... A lot of different finals seem to have 's' and 'sh'
> initials.
> ... It should be noted that the 'sh's are actually pronounced
> that way on the tape.
The romanization sure does look like Meyer-Wempe.
I also notice that there's the vowel other than "i"--the "z" vowel.
That's also gone in contemporary Cantonese.
> I didn't note which words had 'sh' when I had access to
> Cowles' dictionary yesterday, but I do remember sap6 'ten'
> was one of them.
Yes, that would be correct--'ten' is one of the ones with "sh".
> I actually have third source that uses 'sh' - "A Guide to
> Cantonese (Self-taught)" by Y. C. Yuen, printed by Shung Man
> Printing Press, Koowloon (1971?). The romanisation scheme is
> not named, but I'm pretty sure it's Meyer-Wempe (from
> examining all the pronunciation guide examples).
> Unfortunately, pronunciation examples are not given for 's'
> or 'sh' initials.
Now here's a HK-published book! You've got me interested into
why there are still sources including the distinction, when there are
reputable sources that clearly state that the distinction was lost.
Thomas Chan
tc31@cornell.edu
-
rathpy
Re: 'sh' sound in Cantonese
Thomas,
That book "Everyday Cantonese Conversation" is available from Eastwind Books & Arts http://www.eastwindsf.com/cantonese.html
I checked again, and the speaker (who sounds young) definitely pronounces the sh's.
I guess its only one semi-recent source that promotes 'sh' via a recording. The other "A Guide to Cantonese" does have a tape, according to the book, but I don't have it. It's quite probable that it was just using the older Meyer-Wempe romanisation like you said.
Thank-you.
Regards,
rathpy
That book "Everyday Cantonese Conversation" is available from Eastwind Books & Arts http://www.eastwindsf.com/cantonese.html
I checked again, and the speaker (who sounds young) definitely pronounces the sh's.
I guess its only one semi-recent source that promotes 'sh' via a recording. The other "A Guide to Cantonese" does have a tape, according to the book, but I don't have it. It's quite probable that it was just using the older Meyer-Wempe romanisation like you said.
Thank-you.
Regards,
rathpy
-
highyun
Re: 'sh' sound in Cantonese
As a cantonese who grow up in a obsulute cantonese--speaking area.
I will say surely that there isn't the "sh" pronouce in cantonese.
In Gwong Chow,the capital of canton, no one pronouce "sh" before.
I admit that in mandarin there is a significant different between "s" and
"sh",but as cantonese is concerned, there isn't. Why ? because we, as the
most standard cantonese speakers, don't say "sh" at all.
Some people in Hongkong pronouce "sh" today , maybe they are effected
by mandarin. So some people in canton also follow that wrong pronuciation.
In all the cantonese dictionaries published by canton, we can find only
the pronuciation of "s" and never "sh".
I hope every one learn real cantonese.
I will say surely that there isn't the "sh" pronouce in cantonese.
In Gwong Chow,the capital of canton, no one pronouce "sh" before.
I admit that in mandarin there is a significant different between "s" and
"sh",but as cantonese is concerned, there isn't. Why ? because we, as the
most standard cantonese speakers, don't say "sh" at all.
Some people in Hongkong pronouce "sh" today , maybe they are effected
by mandarin. So some people in canton also follow that wrong pronuciation.
In all the cantonese dictionaries published by canton, we can find only
the pronuciation of "s" and never "sh".
I hope every one learn real cantonese.