Hi! l'm Ang Moh Lang, live in UK, and l'm trying to learn Penang Hokkien. Does anyone out there know of a Dictionary? - and while l'm here, what is the word for 'greengrocer'?
Thanks!
English - Penang Hokkien Dictionary?
English-Penang Hokkien Dictionary
Thanks Andrew! No news ref dictionary?
Hi there Marty,
Great that you would like to learn Penang Hokkien.
There is this book "Learn to Speak... Penang Hokkien Dialect". It's a slim volume, giving basic vocabulary and some sample conversations.
Here are some references to it (but perhaps you already familiar with it).
http://www.selectbooks.com.sg/getTitle.cfm?SBNum=38814
http://www.tourismpenang.gov.my/page.cfm?name=ap06c
I really applaud the author for doing this AT ALL. Nevertheless, to me, it remains more a "fun book for tourists visiting (or non-Chinese living in) Penang who might want to say a few phrases". It isn't really adequate for a serious student of the language, for the following reasons:
1) It lacks a little introduction describing the background of the dialect. Such an introduction could have covered stuff like origin, contrast between Penang Hokkien and Hokkien in the south of the peninsular, the presence of many borrowed words from Malay, etc.
2) There are no tone indications in the texts/vocabularies. Indeed tones are not even mentioned in general, for example, in the introduction (let alone in the texts/vocabularies). Without mentioning tones, there can't of course be an explanation of tone-sandhi. I consider both to be fairly important parts of understanding/mastering Hokkien.
3) Nasalization is indicated by an -n- after the initial consonant: knia (to walk), thni (to sew) etc. This is a known convention used in Malaysia in personal names. [One of my cousins has the name "tiann kui", and that's spelled "Tneah Kooi".] With this convention, it is impossible to indicate nasalization in words which don't have an initial consonant (and indeed, the author does not write any nasalization in those cases).
4) The method of transcription is based on English spelling: "loo I khee khnua hee boh?" (= "do you want to go and watch a film?"). This too is based on the known convention used in Malaysia in personal names (again, the second syllable of my cousin's name illustrates this).
5) The author doesn't explain how important the distinction -h (post-vocalic glottal stop) vs. -k vs. -<nothing> is in Hokkien, and appears to spell the post-vocalic glottal stop occasionally with -h, occasionally with -k; -<nothing> occasionally with -<nothing> and occasionally with -h (as in my example above). This inconsistency could be quite confusing for someone trying to learn the language.
6) There are quite a lot of mistakes in transcribing ch vs. chh (i.e. a lot of chh's are written ch).
Points 5 and 6 are just sloppy. Getting points 1-4 fixed would have made it much less accessible to the general public, which is what the book is intended for. I suppose the average person interested in Penang Hokkien doesn't want to master the notation of 7 tones, and tone-sandhi, nasalization, and the post-vocalic glottal stop. Still, I think using a transcription system with "continental" (e.g. Italian/German/Malay) vowel values would have already been a major improvement, as English vowel indications are so vague. Ultimately the author implicitly uses these for diphthongs anyway: "tau" (bean), ""kio" (to call), and (in the example given) "khnua" (to look/see).
Anyway, I *really* don't want to be too critical. It's great that the author has taken the effort to write the book, and it gives a large number of people some insight into Penang Hokkien in an accessible way. Whether the book is suitable for you depends on how far you wish to take your learning of Penang Hokkien.
Regards,
Sim.
Great that you would like to learn Penang Hokkien.
There is this book "Learn to Speak... Penang Hokkien Dialect". It's a slim volume, giving basic vocabulary and some sample conversations.
Here are some references to it (but perhaps you already familiar with it).
http://www.selectbooks.com.sg/getTitle.cfm?SBNum=38814
http://www.tourismpenang.gov.my/page.cfm?name=ap06c
I really applaud the author for doing this AT ALL. Nevertheless, to me, it remains more a "fun book for tourists visiting (or non-Chinese living in) Penang who might want to say a few phrases". It isn't really adequate for a serious student of the language, for the following reasons:
1) It lacks a little introduction describing the background of the dialect. Such an introduction could have covered stuff like origin, contrast between Penang Hokkien and Hokkien in the south of the peninsular, the presence of many borrowed words from Malay, etc.
2) There are no tone indications in the texts/vocabularies. Indeed tones are not even mentioned in general, for example, in the introduction (let alone in the texts/vocabularies). Without mentioning tones, there can't of course be an explanation of tone-sandhi. I consider both to be fairly important parts of understanding/mastering Hokkien.
3) Nasalization is indicated by an -n- after the initial consonant: knia (to walk), thni (to sew) etc. This is a known convention used in Malaysia in personal names. [One of my cousins has the name "tiann kui", and that's spelled "Tneah Kooi".] With this convention, it is impossible to indicate nasalization in words which don't have an initial consonant (and indeed, the author does not write any nasalization in those cases).
4) The method of transcription is based on English spelling: "loo I khee khnua hee boh?" (= "do you want to go and watch a film?"). This too is based on the known convention used in Malaysia in personal names (again, the second syllable of my cousin's name illustrates this).
5) The author doesn't explain how important the distinction -h (post-vocalic glottal stop) vs. -k vs. -<nothing> is in Hokkien, and appears to spell the post-vocalic glottal stop occasionally with -h, occasionally with -k; -<nothing> occasionally with -<nothing> and occasionally with -h (as in my example above). This inconsistency could be quite confusing for someone trying to learn the language.
6) There are quite a lot of mistakes in transcribing ch vs. chh (i.e. a lot of chh's are written ch).
Points 5 and 6 are just sloppy. Getting points 1-4 fixed would have made it much less accessible to the general public, which is what the book is intended for. I suppose the average person interested in Penang Hokkien doesn't want to master the notation of 7 tones, and tone-sandhi, nasalization, and the post-vocalic glottal stop. Still, I think using a transcription system with "continental" (e.g. Italian/German/Malay) vowel values would have already been a major improvement, as English vowel indications are so vague. Ultimately the author implicitly uses these for diphthongs anyway: "tau" (bean), ""kio" (to call), and (in the example given) "khnua" (to look/see).
Anyway, I *really* don't want to be too critical. It's great that the author has taken the effort to write the book, and it gives a large number of people some insight into Penang Hokkien in an accessible way. Whether the book is suitable for you depends on how far you wish to take your learning of Penang Hokkien.
Regards,
Sim.
English-Penang Hokkien Dictionary.
Thanks Sim, that is really helpful. l have that book by Tan Choon Hoe, and l would like to move on from there. lt would be useful if there was a set of audio tapes to accompany it.
l guess l will just have to listen and learn more during my visits to Penang in the future, but thanks again for all that info!
Rgds,
Martyn.
l guess l will just have to listen and learn more during my visits to Penang in the future, but thanks again for all that info!
Rgds,
Martyn.
Hi Martyn,
You're welcome. Sorry, I didn't realise the -n was the end of the firstname rather than the start of the surname.
There's also http://penanghokkien.com/, which I think Ong has posted a link to here before.
I don't listen to it, because I don't have internet at home, and I always have the speaker turned off at work. It also hurts me to see Singaporeans and Malaysians writing Hokkien using pinyin conventions (pinyin b-, g-, and j- for POJ/Hokkien p-, k-, and ch-/c-), which I've seen on that podcast site (and on general Singaporean sites, whenever they talk about Hokkien). Every time I see it I feel like screaming: "BUT HOW ON EARTH ARE YOU GOING TO WRITE (HOKKIEN) b-, g-, and j- THEN???". But of course, I never do.
Regards,
Sim.
You're welcome. Sorry, I didn't realise the -n was the end of the firstname rather than the start of the surname.
There's also http://penanghokkien.com/, which I think Ong has posted a link to here before.
I don't listen to it, because I don't have internet at home, and I always have the speaker turned off at work. It also hurts me to see Singaporeans and Malaysians writing Hokkien using pinyin conventions (pinyin b-, g-, and j- for POJ/Hokkien p-, k-, and ch-/c-), which I've seen on that podcast site (and on general Singaporean sites, whenever they talk about Hokkien). Every time I see it I feel like screaming: "BUT HOW ON EARTH ARE YOU GOING TO WRITE (HOKKIEN) b-, g-, and j- THEN???". But of course, I never do.
Regards,
Sim.
Hi Jilang,
Yeah, there is some stuff around. As you know, my Hokkien is not particularly good, but fortunately it's good enough for me to get a lot out of the Douglas dictionary which many people here have spoken about. One of our long-time Forum members, Aurelio, has also posted a lot of information on the books which are available. In particular, there appear to be a Hokkien-English and English-Hokkien dictionary, produced in Taiwan.
Cheers,
Sim
Yeah, there is some stuff around. As you know, my Hokkien is not particularly good, but fortunately it's good enough for me to get a lot out of the Douglas dictionary which many people here have spoken about. One of our long-time Forum members, Aurelio, has also posted a lot of information on the books which are available. In particular, there appear to be a Hokkien-English and English-Hokkien dictionary, produced in Taiwan.
Cheers,
Sim
Hi Jilang,
Douglas and Barclay use POJ.
Barclay has one slight difference compared to Douglas. The open-o - as in TLPA 'goo' (="five") - is written as "o" followed by a raised dot in Barclay. This is the convention I'm used to, when I think of POJ. In Douglas however, it looks an "e" where the "outer circle" of the "e" has been completely closed. [Alternatively, you could think of it as a very round Greek-theta.] I think there might be a sort of "tail" sticking out of the top right of the character too, but I'm no longer sure (perhaps the raised dot of standard POJ is a remnant of this "tail"...?).
The Douglas open-o takes a bit of getting used to. For a long time, it looked a lot like an "e" to me, and I had to look very carefully with each word before I realised that it wasn't. I suppose this might have been one of the reasons that Barclay (and presumably others) changed the convention to "o" followed by raised dot.
The other dictionaries mentioned by Aurelio are produced by one of the Churches in Taiwan, so I imagine they will be in POJ also.
Douglas and Barclay use POJ.
Barclay has one slight difference compared to Douglas. The open-o - as in TLPA 'goo' (="five") - is written as "o" followed by a raised dot in Barclay. This is the convention I'm used to, when I think of POJ. In Douglas however, it looks an "e" where the "outer circle" of the "e" has been completely closed. [Alternatively, you could think of it as a very round Greek-theta.] I think there might be a sort of "tail" sticking out of the top right of the character too, but I'm no longer sure (perhaps the raised dot of standard POJ is a remnant of this "tail"...?).
The Douglas open-o takes a bit of getting used to. For a long time, it looked a lot like an "e" to me, and I had to look very carefully with each word before I realised that it wasn't. I suppose this might have been one of the reasons that Barclay (and presumably others) changed the convention to "o" followed by raised dot.
The other dictionaries mentioned by Aurelio are produced by one of the Churches in Taiwan, so I imagine they will be in POJ also.