Thanks duaaagiii for those "painful" words:D . Do you mind giving some examples of Hokkien readings of Cantonese?
I believe Taiwanese uses li2 as the regular word for "you". [Sorry, I can't input Chinese characters at the moment] Does this common Taiwanese word correspond to 你 or [ru: 'san dian shui' on the left and 'nu' on the right]?
Some additional questions are:
1. What is the hanzi for "bo" meaning "no/none"
2. What is the hanzi for "m" the negative word.
3. Normally when we use "m" we use it like "m thang" or "m si". So why is it when we use it with "ai3 (want/like/love)" we get "mai3" which is one word/syllable instead of any of the other times when we use it? And what is the HanZi for "mai3"?
4. Do Taiwanese only use:
"siann lang (who)" instead of "tiang"
"chi (only)" instead of "koo koo"?
'chai (at)" instead of "ty"?
5. And finally, in the phrase "ling sing" meaning "life", the first word, which normally means "person", is pronounced "ling". Do Taiwanese always pronounce that word as "ling" even when used normally (eg: I si chit e l[i/a]ng.)?
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6. Regarding what Mark said, I have even more questions! What does 必 mean, how is it pronounced and what is the PinYin (so I can easily type it)?
7. "Boh" means "want". In Mandarin I thought 望 meant "look at". Are the meanings between different Chinese languages of the same character usually the same?
Thanks again.
Some more questions
(I will mark my personal 漢字 preferences with a ☆)
你 is common because it is similar in meaning and pronunciation, and more familiar to the Mandarin-educated
無 ☆ (borrowed meaning) (lit. bu5, colloquial bo5)
others you might encounter:
嘸 (borrowed meaning + colloquial radical for differentiation) (common among Taiwanese speakers not familiar with Taiwanese 漢字)
毛 (archaic)
否 (borrowed meaning; when read as the fixed neutral tone bo0)
others you might encounter:
呣 不 吥 唔
commonly used characters:
莫
勿
勿愛 (contraction)
others you might encounter:
甮 甭 覅
嘜 (Mandarin mai4 + mouth radical)
There is also the contraction boai3 (bo5 +ai3), meaning "to not want".
siang5, siang5, sang2, and sang3.
kan1-ta(nn)1 and kan1-na1 are used most commonly for "only" in speech;
只 chi2 is more formal.
佇 ti7 is used in everyday speech,
在 chai7 is more formal.
(j is pronounced as l in 泉-leaning dialects, such as those spoken in northern Taiwan. The convention is usually to write j- but pronounce it as in one's native dialect.)
人生 is a literary phrase. The difference between jin5 and lang5:
jin5 (literary) is written as 人
lang5 (colloquial) is written as either 人 or 儂
儂 is nice because it takes the guesswork out of determining whether lang5 or jin5 is intended.
Hence jin5, being a literary pronunciation, usually doesn't appear outside of compounds of literary texts.
"I1 si7 chit8-e5 lang5." is how we would say it.
It already means hope / to look (up) at / ...
Meanings of characters (and even compounds) can vary quite a bit between the different Chinese languages.
It would be gibberish... hahaha. The blogger limkianhui mentioned in a blog article (in Hokkien) that unlike in Cantonese, reading written Mandarin in Hokkien is a horrible thing to do. Reading vernacular Cantonese in Hokkien would be worse.Do you mind giving some examples of Hokkien readings of Cantonese?
汝 ☆ is the correct oneI believe Taiwanese uses li2 as the regular word for "you". [Sorry, I can't input Chinese characters at the moment] Does this common Taiwanese word correspond to 你 or [ru: 'san dian shui' on the left and 'nu' on the right]?
你 is common because it is similar in meaning and pronunciation, and more familiar to the Mandarin-educated
in common use:Some additional questions are:
1. What is the hanzi for "bo" meaning "no/none"
無 ☆ (borrowed meaning) (lit. bu5, colloquial bo5)
others you might encounter:
嘸 (borrowed meaning + colloquial radical for differentiation) (common among Taiwanese speakers not familiar with Taiwanese 漢字)
毛 (archaic)
否 (borrowed meaning; when read as the fixed neutral tone bo0)
毋 ☆ (borrowed meaning)2. What is the hanzi for "m" the negative word.
others you might encounter:
呣 不 吥 唔
You are thinking that mai3 is a contraction of m7 and ai3, but that might not be the case.3. Normally when we use "m" we use it like "m thang" or "m si". So why is it when we use it with "ai3 (want/like/love)" we get "mai3" which is one word/syllable instead of any of the other times when we use it? And what is the HanZi for "mai3"?
commonly used characters:
莫
勿
勿愛 (contraction)
others you might encounter:
甮 甭 覅
嘜 (Mandarin mai4 + mouth radical)
There is also the contraction boai3 (bo5 +ai3), meaning "to not want".
In addition to 甚儂 siann2 lang5, we also use the contractions4. Do Taiwanese only use:
"siann lang (who)" instead of "tiang"
"chi (only)" instead of "koo koo"?
'chai (at)" instead of "ty"?
siang5, siang5, sang2, and sang3.
kan1-ta(nn)1 and kan1-na1 are used most commonly for "only" in speech;
只 chi2 is more formal.
佇 ti7 is used in everyday speech,
在 chai7 is more formal.
人生 should be jin5-seng1 or lin5-seng1 (-eng in POJ is -ing in TL/TLPA/...)5. And finally, in the phrase "ling sing" meaning "life", the first word, which normally means "person", is pronounced "ling". Do Taiwanese always pronounce that word as "ling" even when used normally (eg: I si chit e l[i/a]ng.)?
(j is pronounced as l in 泉-leaning dialects, such as those spoken in northern Taiwan. The convention is usually to write j- but pronounce it as in one's native dialect.)
人生 is a literary phrase. The difference between jin5 and lang5:
jin5 (literary) is written as 人
lang5 (colloquial) is written as either 人 or 儂
儂 is nice because it takes the guesswork out of determining whether lang5 or jin5 is intended.
Hence jin5, being a literary pronunciation, usually doesn't appear outside of compounds of literary texts.
"I1 si7 chit8-e5 lang5." is how we would say it.
必 (bi4 in Mandarin, pit4 in Hokkien) means "must" or "need to".6. Regarding what Mark said, I have even more questions! What does 必 mean, how is it pronounced and what is the PinYin (so I can easily type it)?
That is the problem with using 望 (lit. bong7, col.: bang7) for beh4/boh4/....7. "Boh" means "want". In Mandarin I thought 望 meant "look at". Are the meanings between different Chinese languages of the same character usually the same?
It already means hope / to look (up) at / ...
Meanings of characters (and even compounds) can vary quite a bit between the different Chinese languages.
Hi duaaagiii,
I'd like to add my thanks too. I learn a lot from your well-presented and detailed replies, so I'd like you to know that they are really appreciated.
Your latest reply reveals something which I have noticed for a while, namely, that it's sometimes difficult to say what is the "correct" hanzi for some Hokkien words. A person can take the idealized / purist approach (and if someone does, I have no problem with that). I think Mark Yong has a preference for this approach: working out what the original Han cognate was, and using it. But what I liked about your reply was that it showed that other people choose other solutions. They might do it based on meaning, or sound, or by creating new dialect characters - this last either by adding a radical related to the meaning, or by adding a radical which only means 'this is a dialect character' (I read somewhere that this very last method is particular popular with Cantonese). In any case, there are all these different "solutions" to the problem of writing colloquial Hokkien words using hanzi, and one should be aware that they all exist.
Best regards,
Sim.
I'd like to add my thanks too. I learn a lot from your well-presented and detailed replies, so I'd like you to know that they are really appreciated.
Your latest reply reveals something which I have noticed for a while, namely, that it's sometimes difficult to say what is the "correct" hanzi for some Hokkien words. A person can take the idealized / purist approach (and if someone does, I have no problem with that). I think Mark Yong has a preference for this approach: working out what the original Han cognate was, and using it. But what I liked about your reply was that it showed that other people choose other solutions. They might do it based on meaning, or sound, or by creating new dialect characters - this last either by adding a radical related to the meaning, or by adding a radical which only means 'this is a dialect character' (I read somewhere that this very last method is particular popular with Cantonese). In any case, there are all these different "solutions" to the problem of writing colloquial Hokkien words using hanzi, and one should be aware that they all exist.
Best regards,
Sim.
How do people actually know whether the hanzi is the one matching the word? For Mandarin, is it because it is the official language that all the words are kept 'alive' and the hanzi is not lost? Also, this might seem obvious but was it the case that in FuJian there was a time when people spoke and wrote only Hokkien and the characters that they wrote are what we now consider the "correct" characters for Hokkien?
I have also heard "chai" as "chiu" is this another word or the same?
I have also heard "chai" as "chiu" is this another word or the same?
Hi, duaaagiii,
Off-topic: What software are you using to input your Chinese characters? At present, I am relying on Windows XP's built-in East Asian font (Taiwan setting, since I tend to use Traditional Characters). The problem is, I have been having problems in the following two areas:
1. Inputting 'alternate' forms of the same character. For instance, 為 in Traditional Character has an older form with the 爪 radical on top, but I can't seem to input it.
2. Inputting certain radicals, e.g. 衤 and 礻 (had to copy and paste these two from your message!).
Cheers,
Mark
Off-topic: What software are you using to input your Chinese characters? At present, I am relying on Windows XP's built-in East Asian font (Taiwan setting, since I tend to use Traditional Characters). The problem is, I have been having problems in the following two areas:
1. Inputting 'alternate' forms of the same character. For instance, 為 in Traditional Character has an older form with the 爪 radical on top, but I can't seem to input it.
2. Inputting certain radicals, e.g. 衤 and 礻 (had to copy and paste these two from your message!).
Cheers,
Mark
Hi Mark
This probably doesn't answer your question but to type 礻 I used the input method that comes with Windows XP using PinYin. The pinyin for that character is "shi".
Another useful thing is: In the language bar (set to Chinese Taiwan), click Tools>IME Pad. That will open a window in which you can draw that character you want and it will come up with the matching word which you can input by clicking on it.
Does anybody know what 妳 mean? I think it might be a character used for "li2".
Also, duaagiii, how did you input the proper POJ with tone marks?
This probably doesn't answer your question but to type 礻 I used the input method that comes with Windows XP using PinYin. The pinyin for that character is "shi".
Another useful thing is: In the language bar (set to Chinese Taiwan), click Tools>IME Pad. That will open a window in which you can draw that character you want and it will come up with the matching word which you can input by clicking on it.
Does anybody know what 妳 mean? I think it might be a character used for "li2".
Also, duaagiii, how did you input the proper POJ with tone marks?
Hi, jilang,
I also use the pinyin input method in Windows XP. Only difference is, I use the Chinese (Taiwan) font instead of the Chinese (PRC) font, since I use Traditional Characters.
For characters that I do not know the pinyin for, I also use the IME Pad in the Chinese (Taiwan) option, too. Unfortunately, sometimes it does not work for certain radicals, e.g. 肉 in radical form (it always comes out as 月, which is slightly different).
Anyway, I tried the IME Pad for礻again, and managed to get it this time. Wonder why it didn't come out the first time... maybe it's my bad handwriting!
To answer your question: 妳 is a modern Mandarin creation. It's the 'female' equivalent for 你, pronounced exactly the same way.
Cheers,
Mark
I also use the pinyin input method in Windows XP. Only difference is, I use the Chinese (Taiwan) font instead of the Chinese (PRC) font, since I use Traditional Characters.
For characters that I do not know the pinyin for, I also use the IME Pad in the Chinese (Taiwan) option, too. Unfortunately, sometimes it does not work for certain radicals, e.g. 肉 in radical form (it always comes out as 月, which is slightly different).
Anyway, I tried the IME Pad for礻again, and managed to get it this time. Wonder why it didn't come out the first time... maybe it's my bad handwriting!
To answer your question: 妳 is a modern Mandarin creation. It's the 'female' equivalent for 你, pronounced exactly the same way.
Cheers,
Mark
Straight answer: Yes, people knew which hanzi 漢字 matched which character simply by regular usage and transmission for posterity. But bear in mind that there are many words in Hokkien that have no hanzi 漢字 cognate.jilang wrote: How do people actually know whether the hanzi is the one matching the word? For Mandarin, is it because it is the official language that all the words are kept 'alive' and the hanzi is not lost?
(As Sim pointed out, I seem to have this major obsession with finding - and using - the correct hanzi 漢字 for words, and avoiding incorrect 'borrowed' 假借 characters like a plague!
)Strictly speaking, there was really no such thing as "written Hokkien" in pre-modern China. The only real prevailing written language was Classical/Literary Chinese, or wenyan 文言. People in Fujian would write using Classical Chinese, but read the characters using Hokkien pronunciation.jilang wrote: Also, this might seem obvious but was it the case that in FuJian there was a time when people spoke and wrote only Hokkien and the characters that they wrote are what we now consider the "correct" characters for Hokkien?
The above is actually a broad generalisation, because the Hokkien dialect has a large number of dual literary-colloquial pronunciations (文白讀) for characters, e.g. 山 is 'san' in literary pronunciation, but 'sua' in colloquial - texts are normally read using the literary pronunciation. This dual-pronunciation phenomenon actually exists in virtually all the dialects - including Mandarin - but seems to be particularly prevalent in the Min 閩 dialects.
Actually, to say that there was no written colloquial Hokkien is not entire true, either. If I am not mistaken, the early missionaries to Amoy 廈門 translated the Bible into written colloquial Hokkien 福建 and Hockchew 福州, using Chinese characters. I spotted a scanned image of a page from an old Hockchew 福州 Bible on Wikipedia some time ago.
-
Andrew
Amidst all this talk of correct characters, we have to remember that the history of Chinese is full of character borrowings and new formations, especially for abstract concepts.
For example, the word for ten thousand is 萬, which is a picture of a scorpion borrowed for sound.
For the word wu2/bo5, meaning none, the ancients borrowed 毛, which means hair, and later borrowed 無, which is a picture of a dancer (now 舞).
The word jiang, meaning border, started off as a drawing 畺
and the word for strong, qiang, used this for the sound and added a bow to make 彊. Later on, someone added an earth radical to get back to the original meaning of border 疆 which is the one we still use.
For example, the word for ten thousand is 萬, which is a picture of a scorpion borrowed for sound.
For the word wu2/bo5, meaning none, the ancients borrowed 毛, which means hair, and later borrowed 無, which is a picture of a dancer (now 舞).
The word jiang, meaning border, started off as a drawing 畺
and the word for strong, qiang, used this for the sound and added a bow to make 彊. Later on, someone added an earth radical to get back to the original meaning of border 疆 which is the one we still use.