A few questions

jilang · Post by **jilang** » Sun Jul 08, 2007 5:04 am

In addition to the newer questions I've asked, I'd also like to ask:

What is the meaning of "koo tuann"?

Why does POJ have a sixth tone if it is the same as the second?

ong · Post by **ong** » Sun Jul 08, 2007 8:35 am

lonely

jilang · Post by **jilang** » Sun Jul 08, 2007 8:43 am

Thanks, ong.

Any ideas on why there is a sicth tone?

ong · Post by **ong** » Sun Jul 08, 2007 10:37 am

which book you found has a sixth tone symbol?

jilang · Post by **jilang** » Sun Jul 08, 2007 11:50 am

POJ has tones 1-8 yet the 6th is exactly the same as the 2nd. I'm just wondering why they don't call the 7th as 6th and 8th as 7th. I haven't seen it in any book though.

duaaagiii · Post by **duaaagiii** » Sun Jul 08, 2007 6:35 pm

The eight tones are the four classical tone categories (平、上、去、入) split into two registers (陰 and 陽, or 上 and 下). That is,

tone 1 = 陰平
tone 2 = 陰上
tone 3 = 陰去
tone 4 = 陰入
tone 5 = 陽平
tone 6 = 陽上
tone 7 = 陽去
tone 8 = 陽入

In most of the dialects of Minnan spoken in Taiwan, tone 6 has merged with tones 2 and 7. However, there are still some dialects (some 泉州 dialects, I believe?) that use tone 6 (and its corresponding tone sandhi rules), which is why there is still a tone 6 in POJ, TL, and TLPA.

There is also the "high-rising tone" (contour: 231) sometimes referred to as tone 9, but this is not a tone in the classical sense. Tone 9 occurs in cases where a character is duplicated twice: for example, 紅紅紅 would be pronounced as ang9-ang7-ang5.

There are also the two "neutral tones", sometimes both designated as tone 0, which are also not tones in the classical sense.

ong · Post by **ong** » Mon Jul 09, 2007 4:13 am

I already mentioned in this forum there are ciangciu and cuanciu sects which have yangshang.
王永庆 ancestors came from village with 8 tones.

jilang · Post by **jilang** » Thu Jul 12, 2007 8:47 am

Thanks duaagiii for the explanation on tones. Could you please tell me what the meaning of those Chinese terms translate to in English. Also, what would tone 6 and 0 sound like (eg: rising, falling, etc)?

Thanks for your information ong. Could you please tell me which dialects in particular have these tones?

Also, I'd like to ask, how common is it for Hokkien/Taiwanese speakers to translate from Mandarin directly into Hokkien (exact characters) words or phrases that otherwise wouldn't normally be in Hokkien? Is "chu ki" as opposed to "ka ki" both meaning "self" an example of this?

ong · Post by **ong** » Thu Jul 12, 2007 12:28 pm

sixth tone can be 35,53 ,22 or 55

duaaagiii · Post by **duaaagiii** » Fri Jul 13, 2007 5:05 pm

陰 and 陽 are "yin" and "yang", which denote the lower and upper registers. 平 (flat), 上 (rising), 去 (falling), and 入 (checked) are the four classical tone categories (these are not the Mandarin tones). In Cantonese, for example, all of these tone categories are preserved and divided into lower and upper registers. In Mandarin, however, there is no 入 category, and the 上 and 去 are not split into two registers, which is why Mandarin only has four tones: 陰平, 陽平, 上, and 去.

There are two neutral tones (tone 0s): the low neutral tone (which is always low) and the extension neutral tone (which continues the tone of the previous character; if the previous character has tone contour AB, then the neutral tone character will have tone B).

Also, I'd like to ask, how common is it for Hokkien/Taiwanese speakers to translate from Mandarin directly into Hokkien (exact characters) words or phrases that otherwise wouldn't normally be in Hokkien? Is "chu ki" as opposed to "ka ki" both meaning "self" an example of this?

In Taiwan, this does happen quite often, but it is frowned upon for colloquial Mandarin terms yet quite acceptable for literary terms.

自己 tsu7-ki2 (chu7-ki2) already exists as a Hokkien term--- it was not borrowed from Mandarin--- but it is not as colloquial as ka1-ki7 (or ka1-ti7).

Another problem is that some people will guess the Hokkien pronunciation from the Mandarin pronunciation, and guess wrong. For example, 傳 has two valid pronunciations, thuan5 and tuan7, but some Taiwanese speakers will end up saying tshuan5 (chhuan5) because its Mandarin pronunciation is chuan2.