A few questions

jilang · Post by **jilang** » Sat Jul 14, 2007 12:27 am

Thanks for all that information.

When you say 陰 and 陽 denote the lower and upper registers, are you referring to the kind of thing that occurs in Cantonese with tones at a 'high' level, 'middle' and 'low'?

If the neutral tone takes the tone of the previous and the previous happens to be 8 or 4, what would happen if the word with the neutral tone didn't have a glottal stop?

I'm trying to translate a name that I know in Mandarin but don't know the Hokkien pronunciation. First, is 文 pronounced 'bun/buen' and does it have colloquial as well as literary pronunciations? Second, do you know the Hokkien pronunciation for 博?

Thanks

duaaagiii · Post by **duaaagiii** » Sat Jul 14, 2007 8:32 am

You're welcome.

When you say 陰 and 陽 denote the lower and upper registers, are you referring to the kind of thing that occurs in Cantonese with tones at a 'high' level, 'middle' and 'low'?

For Cantonese, that is perhaps a coincidence--- that the upper register tones (1 -- 3, 7, 8 ) sound high, and the lower register tones (4--6, 9) sound low. In Hokkien, tones 1 -- 4 are in the upper register (though not all 'high' in tone level, and tones 5 -- 8 are in the lower register (though not all 'low' in tone level).

It's better to think of "lower" and "upper" registers as logical subdivisions: each of the four tone categories is split into two subcategories.

If the neutral tone takes the tone of the previous and the previous happens to be 8 or 4, what would happen if the word with the neutral tone didn't have a glottal stop?

According to lecture notes by Professor 洪維仁 Ang5 Ui5-jin5:

tone 4 + low neutral tone = 3 + 1
tone 4(p,t,k) + extension neutral tone = 3 + 1
tone 4(h) + extension neutral tone = 31 + 1

tone 8 + low neutral tone = 5 + 1
tone 8(p,t,k) + extension neutral tone = 5 + 1
tone 8(h) + extension neutral tone = 51 + 1

These are regardless of whether or not the neutral tone character has a glottal stop.

I'm trying to translate a name that I know in Mandarin but don't know the Hokkien pronunciation. First, is 文 pronounced 'bun/buen' and does it have colloquial as well as literary pronunciations? Second, do you know the Hokkien pronunciation for 博?

文
literary: bun5, e.g. 英文 ing1-bun5 (English)
(archaic literary: bun7 (to conceal), e.g. 文過飾非 bun7-ko3 sik4-hui1 (to cover up mistakes))

博
literary: phok4, e.g. 博士 phok4-su7 (Ph.D.), 博物館 phok4-but8-kuan2 (museum)
(Mandarin speakers might have a tendency to say pok4.)
(less common: colloquial: phauh4, e.g. 古老博 koo2-lau2-phauh4 (old-fashioned))

So 文博 would be bun5-phok4 (since literary pronunciations are generally used in given names).

(The lecture notes mentioned above are at http://www.uijin.idv.tw/new/teaching/index.htm , specifically chapters 7 and 8. I have benefited greatly from this set of comprehensive lecture notes; however, they are written in Chinese.)

ong · Post by **ong** » Sat Jul 14, 2007 1:04 pm

Jilang,those taiwanese tone sandhi ,vowel,etc are not suitable for you if you are interested to learn huian or yongchun sect

jilang · Post by **jilang** » Sat Jul 14, 2007 1:40 pm

Thanks again for your help.

For Cantonese, that is perhaps a coincidence--- that the upper register tones (1 -- 3, 7, 8 ) sound high, and the lower register tones (4--6, 9) sound low. In Hokkien, tones 1 -- 4 are in the upper register (though not all 'high' in tone level, and tones 5 -- 8 are in the lower register (though not all 'low' in tone level).

Does the fact that they are either a upper or lower register actually reflect the pronunciation? So would tones 1-4 be spoken within a certain range of pitch and tones 5-8 in another?

According to lecture notes by Professor 洪維仁 Ang5 Ui5-jin5:

tone 4 + low neutral tone = 3 + 1
tone 4(p,t,k) + extension neutral tone = 3 + 1
tone 4(h) + extension neutral tone = 31 + 1

tone 8 + low neutral tone = 5 + 1
tone 8(p,t,k) + extension neutral tone = 5 + 1
tone 8(h) + extension neutral tone = 51 + 1

These are regardless of whether or not the neutral tone character has a glottal stop.

Thank you for this information. Unfortunately I'm not quite sure what the numbers (eg: = 3 + 1) are referring to. Is it some merging of tones?

Thanks as well for help in translating that name. I am curious, are names of places also usually in literary?

Also thanks for the link.

Ong, why are they unsuitable? Do they lack tones or vowels?

ong · Post by **ong** » Sat Jul 14, 2007 1:56 pm

In vowel huian and yongchun <side> is puinn not ping in taiwan.
7th tone for some taiwanese is 33 not 22 like yongchun,etc
Too many things to talk about regarding word choice in Taiwan and China.
duaaagiii shouldn't talk too much about taiwanese minnan to you,minnan people from South East Asia should learn a bit more our ancestor dialect instead of taiwanese dialect.

jilang · Post by **jilang** » Sun Jul 15, 2007 5:02 am

PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2007 11:56 pm Post subject:
In vowel huian and yongchun <side> is puinn not ping in taiwan.

Are you referring to the word meaning "side"? In Hui Uann and Eng Chhun it is both "pinn" and "peng".

7th tone for some taiwanese is 33 not 22 like yongchun,etc

I'm not quite sure what the numbers are referring to. What tone system is it?

ong · Post by **ong** » Sun Jul 15, 2007 8:55 am

No.I don't think you are right about pinn or ping.
Both are puinn 24.

jilang · Post by **jilang** » Sun Jul 15, 2007 9:16 am

What variant do you speak?

ong · Post by **ong** » Sun Jul 15, 2007 9:29 am

I got the material from huian and yongchun 县志。 malaysian yongchun people also say ping which just a bad influence from amoy dialect.

jilang · Post by **jilang** » Sun Jul 15, 2007 9:44 am

Where can I see the huian and yongchun 县志?
Why in particular did you bring up the topic of the word "side"?