Quick POJ question

jilang · Post by **jilang** » Mon Aug 20, 2007 6:07 am

Hi

This is just something that only just occured to me. For words like "pian3 - change" or "hian1 - open" or "lian2 - wheel" we use "ia" in romanizing them. Why is it romanized like that when "ia" is a different sound in other uses such as "ia7 - also" or "nia7 - only" or "kia5 - take"? Wouldn't it be more appropriate to use "ie" as "i"+"e" sounds more like the sound?

Also, when words ending in "n" sound like they end in a glottal stop, why is the 3rd tone used instead of 4th or 8th?

Thanks
~Jilang

duaaagiii · Post by **duaaagiii** » Tue Aug 21, 2007 7:02 am

For words like "pian3 - change" or "hian1 - open" or "lian2 - wheel" we use "ia" in romanizing them. Why is it romanized like that when "ia" is a different sound in other uses such as "ia7 - also" or "nia7 - only" or "kia5 - take"? Wouldn't it be more appropriate to use "ie" as "i"+"e" sounds more like the sound?

They say that -ian used to be pronounced as /ian/ a long time ago, but due to phonological assimilation, /ian/ became /ien/. I believe this is also the case for Mandarin and Hakka.

Many Taiwanese speakers pronounce -ian as /en/--- the /i/ got dropped somewhere around first half of the 20th century.

Reference: http://blog.xuite.net/khoguan/blog/9052674

Also, when words ending in "n" sound like they end in a glottal stop, why is the 3rd tone used instead of 4th or 8th?

Sounds ending in -n have a tendency to sound short--- perhaps that's what you're hearing? I don't think -nh is a valid ending. Endings like -ngh, -mh, and -nnh are not supposed to happen, but they can arise in colloquial pronunciations due to phonological changes.

jilang · Post by **jilang** » Sun Aug 26, 2007 6:03 am

They say that -ian used to be pronounced as /ian/ a long time ago, but due to phonological assimilation, /ian/ became /ien/. I believe this is also the case for Mandarin and Hakka.

That's interesting. Do you have any idea as to how long ago the original 'ian' might have been heard?

Many Taiwanese speakers pronounce -ian as /en/--- the /i/ got dropped somewhere around first half of the 20th century.

Does this result in more identical sounding words?

Sounds ending in -n have a tendency to sound short--- perhaps that's what you're hearing? I don't think -nh is a valid ending. Endings like -ngh, -mh, and -nnh are not supposed to happen, but they can arise in colloquial pronunciations due to phonological changes.

Currently the tone I have most trouble identifying in words is the 3rd tone. Most of the time when I find a word is 3rd tone I would have thought it was a 8th tone due to the abrubt stop in the word (eg: 'kuai3 - blame' sounds alot like 'kuaih8'). And 3rd tone words ending in 'n' sound very much like they have a glottal stop. Could you please describe the sound of the 3rd tone and the difference between it and the 8th?

Thank you very much

ong · Post by **ong** » Sun Aug 26, 2007 7:51 am

jiliang,both huian and some yongchun 8th tone is a rising type,so there are no way you can get confused .

duaaagiii · Post by **duaaagiii** » Mon Aug 27, 2007 10:17 pm

They say that -ian used to be pronounced as /ian/ a long time ago, but due to phonological assimilation, /ian/ became /ien/. I believe this is also the case for Mandarin and Hakka.
That's interesting. Do you have any idea as to how long ago the original 'ian' might have been heard?

I'd only be guessing.

Many Taiwanese speakers pronounce -ian as /en/--- the /i/ got dropped somewhere around first half of the 20th century.
Does this result in more identical sounding words?

Nope.

jilang · Post by **jilang** » Sat Sep 01, 2007 10:57 am

jiliang,both huian and some yongchun 8th tone is a rising type,so there are no way you can get confused .

Thanks. That should help me identify tones. By rising, do you mean a 5th tone sound except with a glottal stop?

duaaagiii · Post by **duaaagiii** » Tue Sep 11, 2007 5:24 am

教羅演變个趨勢[tshu-sè] (in mixed 漢字 and TL romanization) by khoguan

A translation of the first sentence from the fourth paragraph:

Perhaps around 1873, the Minnan endings /ian/ and /ien/ could both be heard, but /ien/ already had the upper hand.

ong · Post by **ong** » Tue Sep 11, 2007 8:22 am

梁炯辉 master degree thesis already mentioned this with live example from China.
When did huian people start speaking en?He has no answer.This guy is amature for me

jilang · Post by **jilang** » Thu Sep 13, 2007 11:50 am

Thanks duaaagiii!

On a slightly different topic, how do you say these terms in Hokkien?

"suggest" & "suggestion"
"farm"
"farmer"

ong · Post by **ong** » Thu Sep 13, 2007 3:06 pm

Jilang,
Just go to the bank and send some money to buy that english amoy dict .Do not tell me you don't have 1000 taiwan dollars.What is the problem?