duaaaagiii wrote:
18. 配為宗姪成貴者 phue3/pher3/phe3-ui5 tsong1 sing5-kui3--tsia2
to our nephew, Seng Kooi.
Hi, duaaaagiii,
I read your translation again, and I think you accidentally left out the Romanisation for 姪. Is it 'tit'? What is the tone number? (sorry, I am unable to load up the http://edic.nict.gov.tw/mdic/ webpage, so I could not look up the tone number).
Oops, thanks! Yes, it's tit8.
Mark Yong wrote:It is interesting to note that especially in Penang Hokkien, the term 姪 for 'nephew' is not commonly used, rather 孫仔 'sun-a' (the same character for 'grandchild') is used.
Some people (as well as that dictionary) borrow 甥 to write the character for "nephew". Its meaning matches, and its pronunciation is not too far off.
duaaagiii wrote:
Some people (as well as that dictionary) borrow 甥 to write the character for "nephew". Its meaning matches, and its pronunciation is not too far off.
Actually, there is a difference between 甥 and 姪. Strictly speaking, children of one's brothers are referred to as 姪, while children of one's sisters are referred to as 甥. In Sim's case, since (I presume) the writer of the marriage proposal document is the groom's father's brother (I am guessing, since the writer is also a Lee), then it should be 姪.
Another question: Isn't the pronunciation for 甥 'sing' quite far off from 孫 'sun' to be borrowed and used interchangeably?
Yes, very observant of you to notice that Penang Hokkiens often use "sun1" to mean nephew or niece, as well as grandchild. It used to amuse me that this was the one instance where the otherwise much vaguer system of kinship terms in English was actually more precise than the Hokkien/Chinese one!
Yes, I believe Lee Choon Kheng was Lee Seng Kooi's "a-cek" (father's younger brother), but I'd have to check with my uncle. He was in any case - as you so rightly conclude from the shared surname - a paternal uncle, but could have been an elder brother, or elder or younger *cousin* of Lee Seng Kooi's father.
duaaagiii wrote:
Some people (as well as that dictionary) borrow 甥 to write the character for "nephew". Its meaning matches, and its pronunciation is not too far off.
Actually, there is a difference between 甥 and 姪. Strictly speaking, children of one's brothers are referred to as 姪, while children of one's sisters are referred to as 甥. In Sim's case, since (I presume) the writer of the marriage proposal document is the groom's father's brother (I am guessing, since the writer is also a Lee), then it should be 姪.
Another question: Isn't the pronunciation for 甥 'sing' quite far off from 孫 'sun' to be borrowed and used interchangeably?
While researching on the differences between 甥 and 姪, I came across this article on Taiwanese kinship terms (which, I suppose, would be more-or-less applicable to Hokkien as a whole).
Don't waste your time on limkianhui.He stays in 同安 and never bother to go to library to read tongan zhi.Just a lazy guy who didn't do much study.
甥 and 侄 are too far,I don't know why he said it is not too far
see artcile by Pro.Lim and some hainan articles as well. http://www.365.com.my/download.php?file ... fd30abdebc
What I tried to do is to understand how the individual characters combine to make up the idiomatic translation. Most of the time it was quite clear, but there are still some instances where I don't understand.
Thanks a lot!
Sim.
A. Line 03 伏以
Literally: 伏 "to lie prostrate" + 以 "in order to". Is this an elevated way of saying "to wish"?
B. Lines 07, 10, 26+27 - "higher lines"
It makes more sense not to have a line-break between line 6 and 7 (as you don't, in your translation). I notice that on the scroll itself, line 7 (referring to the Tan family) is higher than the rest of the text (so it looked like the beginning of a new line to me).
The same thing happens in line 10 (referring to Tan Hong Lim), and again in lines 26 and 27 (referring to Tan Hong Lim's mother); i.e. these lines are higher than the rest of the text.
Is this to emphasise the "highness" of the Tan family in all 3 cases, and so there is actually no line-break at these points at all? Your translation (and the sense of the text) seems to imply that.
C. Line 09 衍敬仲之芳踪
What is the connection between the Chen Wan (陳完) of your translation and Jing Zhong (敬仲)?
D. Line 11 器宇宏深
How do these 4 characters result in the meaning "whose bearing is dignified"? Does the "bearing" come from the 儀 in the line which follows? How does 宇 = "eaves" fit into this?
E. Line 13 欣懷御李
You say that 李 refers to 李膺. Who is 李膺, or what does it mean?
F. Line 17
Why is 官 used in 清妙官 to refer to a woman?
G. Lines 19 儀慚不腆 & 20 礼愧大方
I don't understand how these characters go to make the meaning "our gifts are humble" and "our manners shamefully lacking".
Both TranslatorA and TranslatorB have the "humble gifts" going with 礼愧大方 rather than with 儀慚不腆, and TranslatorA has the "ill manners" going with 儀慚不腆; i.e. the other way around. Also, should I understand 大方 as a ci2yu3 meaning "tasteful" here?
H. Line 22 敬行文定
Does 文定 actually mean "betrothal", or is that derived from the context?
I. Line 23 欣觀雁拜
Would I be correct in thinking that 雁 here refers to geese as the symbol of connubial bliss / marital fidelity, and hence that 雁拜 refers to the marriage rituals?
J. Line 24 伏?冀熊占
Mark helped to track 冀 down as "to hope for", but:
1. Should 占 be interpreted as "to practice divination", or be part of a ci2yu3 with 熊 ?
2. If the latter, then how does 熊占 become a "baby boy"?
K. Line 27 覽念不宣
1. The meaning of 覽 appears to be "to look at, see, view". The meanings of 鑒 are: example / mirror / to view / reflection / to reflect / to inspect, scrutinize, examine / to warn, warning, object lesson / (ancient bronze mirror) / (polite, usually used in the opening phrase in letters) Dear.
If you are amending 覽 to 鑒, I suppose it's because you're not using the "view"-related meanings of 鑒 (otherwise there would be no reason to amend). Which of the other meanings is better in this context? Or perhaps your *are* using the same meaning but you switch because 覽念 is not a good combination, whereas 鑒念 is?
2. Am I correct in thinking that 不宣 is a ci2yu3 meaning "undeclared"?
3. I don't understand how these characters go to make the meaning "her approval".
L. Lines 28 & 29 - the dates
It is unclear to me if this date of 2 June 1923 is that of the "expression of thanks" (i.e. the message on the scroll), the betrothal, or the wedding itself.
M. Line 31 特別製造
Do you think this means specially made for marriage contracts?
Mark Yong wrote:While researching on the differences between 甥 and 姪, I came across this article on Taiwanese kinship terms (which, I suppose, would be more-or-less applicable to Hokkien as a whole).
Let me know if this has already been mentioned elsewhere in this Forum.
Hi Mark!
Wow! I thought I liked to analyse stuff to the most minute detail! . I once wrote up a document analysing kinship terms as they are/were used in my family, but this seems to go into much more detail.
Is it 'tit'? What is the tone number? (sorry, I am unable to load up the http://edic.nict.gov.tw/mdic/ webpage, so I could not look up the tone number).
: I made a transcription error myself. In line 21, I had 