sugar coating? then why not u suggest vietnam return the land of champa back to the descendents of the champs then? can u still find them? would the vietnamese govt be willing to do so? a separate country for the champs, who was 'raped', as u suggested, by the vietnamese 600yrs back?
and nomenclatures? isnt 'proto cantonese' a nomenclature of yours? the chinese historians had called them 'ancient viets' literally all the while, never denying that they were the one of the ancestors of present vietnamese. it is u who tried to connect them with the present cantonese, probably(i guessed) hoping to gain sympathy from them. and, if that happens, u would probably announce that even cantonese would agreed with u. too bad, its not happening that way.
and rectification on what? that it is wrong, immoral or its a sin, or maybe from the point of cultural preservation it is undesirable for ancient races/tribes to attack each other? man, if they can understand that during that time, globalisation would take place 2000 yrs back.
A Separate Cantonese Republic???
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Sum Won
Re: A Separate Cantonese Republic???
-Yes, you've asked the question already of the VietNamese returning VietNam from modern-day Hue all the way down to the edge of the Viet border, and I'm sure if you sifted somewhere through my responses on either threads, as I've already said: it's not a bad idea.
-You can still find the modern-day Champa, now known as the Khmers.
I never wanted to seek any sympathy from the VietNamese, because they stick with some nomenclature given to them by the Chinese, for some political purpose, which you still fail to see. If you'd like me to dig up a few of my arguements on how the Viet in modern-day "VietNamese" is a nomenclature, or even type them over again, I'd gladly do so.
Amazing, that you actually managed to rephrase my arguements in this thread in a nutshell. Now, you are correct that if people had any empathy for the fellow human being, with any tolerance of any sort for the other, that people would've come together alot more sooner. So, after half a millenia or so of written history, you'd think that someone would at least realize their mistakes and do something to rectify the situation, instead of making some pathetic excuse to justify their wrongs.
-You can still find the modern-day Champa, now known as the Khmers.
I never wanted to seek any sympathy from the VietNamese, because they stick with some nomenclature given to them by the Chinese, for some political purpose, which you still fail to see. If you'd like me to dig up a few of my arguements on how the Viet in modern-day "VietNamese" is a nomenclature, or even type them over again, I'd gladly do so.
Amazing, that you actually managed to rephrase my arguements in this thread in a nutshell. Now, you are correct that if people had any empathy for the fellow human being, with any tolerance of any sort for the other, that people would've come together alot more sooner. So, after half a millenia or so of written history, you'd think that someone would at least realize their mistakes and do something to rectify the situation, instead of making some pathetic excuse to justify their wrongs.
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KP
Re: A Separate Cantonese Republic???
Actually Khmers and Champa are different. Khmers are basically Cambodians/Kampucheans. Chams still exist in Vietnam, though only a small population. Also, Chams have Muslim names, Khmers do not.
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ppk
Re: A Separate Cantonese Republic???
ah ha, got u again, sum, nomenclature techniques, putting champs equals to khmers... and vietnamese? make up ur mind, are u really asking for a separate 'cantonese' republic or is it a 'vietnamese' one? hopefully now u can tell us what's really up ur sleeves...
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ppk
Re: A Separate Cantonese Republic???
and in this case, *smile*, i would suggest to the chinese govt to take this into consideration after the establishment of a 'republic of champa'. how about that?
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ppk
Re: A Separate Cantonese Republic???
maybe i should quote my source,
1, http://www.limsi.fr/Recherche/CIG/echampa.htm
It is an ancient kingdom of Indochina known in the past as "Lâm Â'p" ( or Lin Yi ), then Chiêm Thành ( or Tchan-Tcheng in Chinese) and located in what is now central Vietnam between Dà Nang and Phan Thiê't. The amazing Cham towers in red bricks and sandstone found in Dà Nang and Phan Thiê't are the sole silent witnesses of a civilization vanished in the turbulence of history.
The Chams were no doubts of _Indonesian_ origin and occupied the coasts of central and south Vietnam. In 2nd century, this people of sailors adopted Hinduism on contact with Indian merchants, which gave birth to the kingdom of Champa.
A Chinese traveller of 4th century described them with a particular typical physique: Big straight nose, black and curly hair, practicing a funeral ritual that consists of cremation at the sound of the drum. (ppk: which makes some speculated that they are indians, or at least, the royals are indians)
The Chàms were not only excellent sailors but also formidable builders and ingenious farmers. The Chàms arrived at achieving the unity of the country at the beginning of 5th century after having resisted several rounds of Chinese domination attempt. Their capital was located at Indrapura ( Trà Kiê?u ), near Dà Nang ( former Tourane of the French) from 7th to 9th century.
Thanks to the silk, spices, and ivory trade between China on one hand and India and the Muslim world on the other, this kingdom experienced a period of prosperity that was troubled first by the conquest of the Khmers in 1145-1147 then next by the policy of expansion of Kubilai Khan's Mongols. To face this domination, the Chàms sought alliance with Vietnam, which allowed the Chàms and the Vietnamese to come out victorious during this confrontation.
To seal this union, a Vietnamese princess of the name Huyê`n Trân of the Tran dynasty, sister of king Trâ`n Anh Tôn was proposed to become in 1306 the wife of the Champa king Chê' Mâ~n (Jaya Simhavarman) in exchange for the two Cham territories Châu Ô and Châu Ri', located at the Hai Vân Pass. These are no other than the two northern provinces Quang Tri. and Thu*`a Thiên of presently Vietnam (Huê'). This union was of short term. The Vietnamese continued to claim more land toward the South and the death of king Che Man a year after his marriage without an heir was only an additional pretext in the conquest of Champa. The king of Vietnam set up a plot by sending his general Trâ`n Kha('c Chung to rescue his sister, who had to be sacrificed according to the Cham tradition, at the funeral of her husband. The provinces of Châu Ô and Châu Ri' became then the subject of discord between Champa and Vietnam. The Chams had a burst of energy with king Chê' Bô`ng Nga ( Binasuor ) who struck the Vietnamese several times by ransacking the capital Thang Long in 1372 and 1377. But he was assassinated in 1389 during a new invasion of Vietnam and his death marked the decline of the Chams. The Vietnamese annexed this kingdom around 1470 under the Lê dynasty with king Lê Tha'nh Tôn.
2, http://www.asiatour.com/vietnam/e-01land/ev-lan21.htm
In the 2nd century of Christian reckoning, the kingdom of Champa establishes itself in the area modern-day Danang. It is founded by the people of the Chams, who are _ethnically not related to the Vietnamese_ but probably have _immigrated from an area today belonging to Indonesia_. While the kingdom of Funan to the South of Champa was hardly influenced by China, the kingdom of Champa, during the 1,600 years of its history, repeatedly suffers Chinese overlordship.
Apart from that, Champa has to balance between two immediate neighbours stronger in numbers of population and in military terms: Vietnam to the North and the realm of the Khmer (Cambodians) to the South. Like Funan, the kingdom of Champa principally is a seafaring merchant power ruling over only a small land area.
In 1471 the armies of the Vietnamese Le Dynasty conquer the kingdom of Champa. About 60,000 Champa soldiers are slain, another 60,000 are abducted into Vietnamese slavery. The kingdom of Champa is reduced to a small area around the present-day Vietnamese city of Nha Trang.
When in 1720 a new attack by Vietnamese armies threatens the kingdom of Champa, the entire nation of the Cham emigrates to the Southwest, into an area north of lake Tonle Sap in present-day Cambodia.
During the Cambodian Khmer Rouge reign of terror from 1975 to 1979, some 100,000 of 250,000 Chams die or are killed.
3, http://mcel.pacificu.edu/as/students/vb/CHAm.htm
While probably the strongest single cultural influence in Vietnam was China , the Cham civilization offers a startling contrast to many of Vietnam's Mandarin conventions. The Cham derive their cultural influences almost exclusively from India . Instead of the Confucianism and Taoism of other peoples in Vietnam, the _Cham were almost exclusively Hindu_(ppk: reasons stated above). This divergence in religion had substantial impacts in both social organization and world view.
The Cham existed from the second to the sixteenth century throughout the central highlands of Vietnam. The strongholds of Cham influence and power were centered in the Dong Nai Basin and Deo Ngang province. It is generally agreed that the kingdom was separated into five regions: Northern area, Amravati area, Vijaya Area, Kauthara Area, and Panduranga area. Even though this is a considerable portion of Vietnam, the severity of weather and limited area for agriculture limited the size of the population to about two and a half million at its height. The Cham were separated into two clans: Narikel Vamsa (Coconut Clan) and Kramuk Vamsa (Betelnut Clan). The Narikel Vamsa primarily ruled the Northern regions of the kingdom, the Kramuk Vamsa centered in the South.
Much like the Brahman cultures that flourish in India , the Cham culture utilized a caste system. The strict rigor of this system benefited the privileged Brahmans and Kshatriyas, and served to relegate untouchables to the periphery of organized life. Marriages tended to occur within the same caste with little deviation. Bodies were also cremated in a funeral pyre, called a Ghat, instead of being buried in a family grave. A striking difference from some of the older animist beliefs that already existed in Vietnam. Unlike India , however, the position of women seems to be more central to the government power structure. Chinese historians note that women held considerable power in both matters of family and marriage. At the same time the ritual of Sati was also practiced. The Cham people also adopted the Hindu practice of not eating beef -- a practice still observed in some areas of Vietnam today.
The Cham worshipped the Trinity of Brahma, Vishnu and Mahesh. In addition to this powerful trio, the Cham also paid reverence to their consorts and offspring. Shiva is the central figure of worship for most of the civilization of Champa. He is worshipped as both a figure of a man and his symbolic form, the linga. The Linga is often found in the art and architecture of the Cham people.
While the majority of the Cham people were Hindu, there is a significant minority of the population that were also Mahayana Buddhist and Islamic.
*much of the information presented in this section was obtained from the research conducted by J.C. Sharma in his text "Temples of Champa in Vietnam".
1, http://www.limsi.fr/Recherche/CIG/echampa.htm
It is an ancient kingdom of Indochina known in the past as "Lâm Â'p" ( or Lin Yi ), then Chiêm Thành ( or Tchan-Tcheng in Chinese) and located in what is now central Vietnam between Dà Nang and Phan Thiê't. The amazing Cham towers in red bricks and sandstone found in Dà Nang and Phan Thiê't are the sole silent witnesses of a civilization vanished in the turbulence of history.
The Chams were no doubts of _Indonesian_ origin and occupied the coasts of central and south Vietnam. In 2nd century, this people of sailors adopted Hinduism on contact with Indian merchants, which gave birth to the kingdom of Champa.
A Chinese traveller of 4th century described them with a particular typical physique: Big straight nose, black and curly hair, practicing a funeral ritual that consists of cremation at the sound of the drum. (ppk: which makes some speculated that they are indians, or at least, the royals are indians)
The Chàms were not only excellent sailors but also formidable builders and ingenious farmers. The Chàms arrived at achieving the unity of the country at the beginning of 5th century after having resisted several rounds of Chinese domination attempt. Their capital was located at Indrapura ( Trà Kiê?u ), near Dà Nang ( former Tourane of the French) from 7th to 9th century.
Thanks to the silk, spices, and ivory trade between China on one hand and India and the Muslim world on the other, this kingdom experienced a period of prosperity that was troubled first by the conquest of the Khmers in 1145-1147 then next by the policy of expansion of Kubilai Khan's Mongols. To face this domination, the Chàms sought alliance with Vietnam, which allowed the Chàms and the Vietnamese to come out victorious during this confrontation.
To seal this union, a Vietnamese princess of the name Huyê`n Trân of the Tran dynasty, sister of king Trâ`n Anh Tôn was proposed to become in 1306 the wife of the Champa king Chê' Mâ~n (Jaya Simhavarman) in exchange for the two Cham territories Châu Ô and Châu Ri', located at the Hai Vân Pass. These are no other than the two northern provinces Quang Tri. and Thu*`a Thiên of presently Vietnam (Huê'). This union was of short term. The Vietnamese continued to claim more land toward the South and the death of king Che Man a year after his marriage without an heir was only an additional pretext in the conquest of Champa. The king of Vietnam set up a plot by sending his general Trâ`n Kha('c Chung to rescue his sister, who had to be sacrificed according to the Cham tradition, at the funeral of her husband. The provinces of Châu Ô and Châu Ri' became then the subject of discord between Champa and Vietnam. The Chams had a burst of energy with king Chê' Bô`ng Nga ( Binasuor ) who struck the Vietnamese several times by ransacking the capital Thang Long in 1372 and 1377. But he was assassinated in 1389 during a new invasion of Vietnam and his death marked the decline of the Chams. The Vietnamese annexed this kingdom around 1470 under the Lê dynasty with king Lê Tha'nh Tôn.
2, http://www.asiatour.com/vietnam/e-01land/ev-lan21.htm
In the 2nd century of Christian reckoning, the kingdom of Champa establishes itself in the area modern-day Danang. It is founded by the people of the Chams, who are _ethnically not related to the Vietnamese_ but probably have _immigrated from an area today belonging to Indonesia_. While the kingdom of Funan to the South of Champa was hardly influenced by China, the kingdom of Champa, during the 1,600 years of its history, repeatedly suffers Chinese overlordship.
Apart from that, Champa has to balance between two immediate neighbours stronger in numbers of population and in military terms: Vietnam to the North and the realm of the Khmer (Cambodians) to the South. Like Funan, the kingdom of Champa principally is a seafaring merchant power ruling over only a small land area.
In 1471 the armies of the Vietnamese Le Dynasty conquer the kingdom of Champa. About 60,000 Champa soldiers are slain, another 60,000 are abducted into Vietnamese slavery. The kingdom of Champa is reduced to a small area around the present-day Vietnamese city of Nha Trang.
When in 1720 a new attack by Vietnamese armies threatens the kingdom of Champa, the entire nation of the Cham emigrates to the Southwest, into an area north of lake Tonle Sap in present-day Cambodia.
During the Cambodian Khmer Rouge reign of terror from 1975 to 1979, some 100,000 of 250,000 Chams die or are killed.
3, http://mcel.pacificu.edu/as/students/vb/CHAm.htm
While probably the strongest single cultural influence in Vietnam was China , the Cham civilization offers a startling contrast to many of Vietnam's Mandarin conventions. The Cham derive their cultural influences almost exclusively from India . Instead of the Confucianism and Taoism of other peoples in Vietnam, the _Cham were almost exclusively Hindu_(ppk: reasons stated above). This divergence in religion had substantial impacts in both social organization and world view.
The Cham existed from the second to the sixteenth century throughout the central highlands of Vietnam. The strongholds of Cham influence and power were centered in the Dong Nai Basin and Deo Ngang province. It is generally agreed that the kingdom was separated into five regions: Northern area, Amravati area, Vijaya Area, Kauthara Area, and Panduranga area. Even though this is a considerable portion of Vietnam, the severity of weather and limited area for agriculture limited the size of the population to about two and a half million at its height. The Cham were separated into two clans: Narikel Vamsa (Coconut Clan) and Kramuk Vamsa (Betelnut Clan). The Narikel Vamsa primarily ruled the Northern regions of the kingdom, the Kramuk Vamsa centered in the South.
Much like the Brahman cultures that flourish in India , the Cham culture utilized a caste system. The strict rigor of this system benefited the privileged Brahmans and Kshatriyas, and served to relegate untouchables to the periphery of organized life. Marriages tended to occur within the same caste with little deviation. Bodies were also cremated in a funeral pyre, called a Ghat, instead of being buried in a family grave. A striking difference from some of the older animist beliefs that already existed in Vietnam. Unlike India , however, the position of women seems to be more central to the government power structure. Chinese historians note that women held considerable power in both matters of family and marriage. At the same time the ritual of Sati was also practiced. The Cham people also adopted the Hindu practice of not eating beef -- a practice still observed in some areas of Vietnam today.
The Cham worshipped the Trinity of Brahma, Vishnu and Mahesh. In addition to this powerful trio, the Cham also paid reverence to their consorts and offspring. Shiva is the central figure of worship for most of the civilization of Champa. He is worshipped as both a figure of a man and his symbolic form, the linga. The Linga is often found in the art and architecture of the Cham people.
While the majority of the Cham people were Hindu, there is a significant minority of the population that were also Mahayana Buddhist and Islamic.
*much of the information presented in this section was obtained from the research conducted by J.C. Sharma in his text "Temples of Champa in Vietnam".
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Sum Won
Re: A Separate Cantonese Republic???
ppk:
I'll admit to the mistake of putting the khmers and the Champs together. However, I never clumped the VietNamese with the proto-Cantonese, though they had similar cultures, one was a major influence over the other one. The VietNamese claim the Dong-Son culture as the beginning of their civilization. Any evidence of Dong-Son presence in what is known as GuangDong in modern times?
Don't tell me to make up my mind, because unlike you, I can at least manage to keep an open mind to other possibilities, rather than sticking 100% to some old books, filled with biased views.
kp:
Chams are also in Cambodia (hence my confusion). Unfortunately, the Chams in Cambodia have been assimilated into Khmer culture.
I'll admit to the mistake of putting the khmers and the Champs together. However, I never clumped the VietNamese with the proto-Cantonese, though they had similar cultures, one was a major influence over the other one. The VietNamese claim the Dong-Son culture as the beginning of their civilization. Any evidence of Dong-Son presence in what is known as GuangDong in modern times?
Don't tell me to make up my mind, because unlike you, I can at least manage to keep an open mind to other possibilities, rather than sticking 100% to some old books, filled with biased views.
kp:
Chams are also in Cambodia (hence my confusion). Unfortunately, the Chams in Cambodia have been assimilated into Khmer culture.
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ppk
Re: A Separate Cantonese Republic???
it not about old books, it about how u would accomplish ur goals. so far u show no practical way to decide how to define the demographic, cultural and political contents of a 'cantonese republic' except severing the land of canton from china. u want a cantonese republic, but have u any idea who are the cantonese? what is ur own definition of cantonese and does it apply to all cantonese? does it apply to me? cos i am a cantonese too. it would be convinient for me to say vietnamese are originally chinese and we should have a chinese republic in vietnam, without giving any proof who are the vietnamese or chinese. *just give me that land, will u?*.
''though they had similar cultures, one was a major influence over the other one. The VietNamese claim the Dong-Son culture as the beginning of their civilization. Any evidence of Dong-Son presence in what is known as GuangDong in modern times?''
wad are u talking here? if u say there are no evidence of dongson culture in guangdong now, wad is the relation of cantonese culture and vietnamese culture? ur 'cantonese republic' dont stand at all.
''though they had similar cultures, one was a major influence over the other one. The VietNamese claim the Dong-Son culture as the beginning of their civilization. Any evidence of Dong-Son presence in what is known as GuangDong in modern times?''
wad are u talking here? if u say there are no evidence of dongson culture in guangdong now, wad is the relation of cantonese culture and vietnamese culture? ur 'cantonese republic' dont stand at all.
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KP
Re: A Separate Cantonese Republic???
Their is evidence of DongSon culture in China, hence the debate of which country has found the oldest bronze drums. Just my geography, I assume the bronze drums found in China are more likely found in the most Southeastern part of China, I'm not sure if any DongSon culture artifacts were found in "Canton" though.
How far south would this "Cantonese Republic" go? Are the Chinese at the border of Vietnam cantonese? or something else?
How far south would this "Cantonese Republic" go? Are the Chinese at the border of Vietnam cantonese? or something else?
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Sum Won
Re: A Separate Cantonese Republic???
ppk (In reply to http://www.chinalanguage.com/forum/read ... 1973&t=400 & http://www.chinalanguage.com/forum/read ... 974&t=1350):
A correction on both our parts: It's not just about the old books, that's just 50% of it. The other half, is the dogmatism towards the issues (of "proto-Cantonese not being Chinese", and "A Seperate Cantonese Republic") that everyone has. Another misconception of yours, is that the ancient tribes who were in modern-day GuangDong really called themselves "Viet". I must implore you once again to read my posts regarding the subject. If you don't want to sift through all of them, I would be more than happy to type it all up for your again under request by you or anyone else interested. Heck, if I really thought that the Ancient VietNamese and proto-Cantonese were all the same, I would've asked for a "Viet Republic" that encompassed VietNam, GuangXi, and GuangDong.
Of course I have no way of providing any cultural contents of the "Cantonese Republic" the reason for my other thread was to get some questions answered about the origins and culture of the local people. Unfortunately, only a few people were of any help at all. Political contents? Heck, this thread was all about politics. The ultimate goal of the "Cantonese Republic" was already blatantly told, if you haven't seen it, scroll up and try reading everything again. My definition of Cantonese: "Oh, well, I am very sorry" that I can't provide you with a definition of Cantonese people that fits every Cantonese's distinctness, because everyone is an individual. By your definition of Cantonese, I'm not one. You wanted me to give you a definition of Cantonese, but I can't give one to you, however you supposedly know more about the Cantonese than I would, so why don't you give me an example to work off of?
Not everyone chooses to their own country. If every Second-generation (or further) Cantonese person took up American culture, has American citizenship, and barely has any connection to his "Ancestrial Country", yet identifies himself as "Cantonese" rather than American, is he wrong? How about something within one generation: The Japanese the that were left behind in China, who are trying to return back to Japan, who have a Chinese passport,citizenship, and everything else makes them Chinese except for their blood, even the fact that they can't even speak their own language anymore (or barely), is it wrong for them to call themselves Japanese and ask for their compensation?
If you don't see a similarity between the above statement and what you've said, you must be blind. If you don't understand my point, you've missed the point completely.
If you want to keep the Chinese and Cantonese together, don't give me a double standard, and say that the world's nations shouldn't be combined together.
And about the Champa Republic, of course I realized it was a sarcastic remark, but there's still fun for me in agreeing with it, as it does fit what I'm trying to do. If you believe yourself to be so incompetent that you have no way of changing things in the world (directly or indirectly) then you've just set your own limits.
A correction on both our parts: It's not just about the old books, that's just 50% of it. The other half, is the dogmatism towards the issues (of "proto-Cantonese not being Chinese", and "A Seperate Cantonese Republic") that everyone has. Another misconception of yours, is that the ancient tribes who were in modern-day GuangDong really called themselves "Viet". I must implore you once again to read my posts regarding the subject. If you don't want to sift through all of them, I would be more than happy to type it all up for your again under request by you or anyone else interested. Heck, if I really thought that the Ancient VietNamese and proto-Cantonese were all the same, I would've asked for a "Viet Republic" that encompassed VietNam, GuangXi, and GuangDong.
Of course I have no way of providing any cultural contents of the "Cantonese Republic" the reason for my other thread was to get some questions answered about the origins and culture of the local people. Unfortunately, only a few people were of any help at all. Political contents? Heck, this thread was all about politics. The ultimate goal of the "Cantonese Republic" was already blatantly told, if you haven't seen it, scroll up and try reading everything again. My definition of Cantonese: "Oh, well, I am very sorry" that I can't provide you with a definition of Cantonese people that fits every Cantonese's distinctness, because everyone is an individual. By your definition of Cantonese, I'm not one. You wanted me to give you a definition of Cantonese, but I can't give one to you, however you supposedly know more about the Cantonese than I would, so why don't you give me an example to work off of?
Not everyone chooses to their own country. If every Second-generation (or further) Cantonese person took up American culture, has American citizenship, and barely has any connection to his "Ancestrial Country", yet identifies himself as "Cantonese" rather than American, is he wrong? How about something within one generation: The Japanese the that were left behind in China, who are trying to return back to Japan, who have a Chinese passport,citizenship, and everything else makes them Chinese except for their blood, even the fact that they can't even speak their own language anymore (or barely), is it wrong for them to call themselves Japanese and ask for their compensation?
If you don't see a similarity between the above statement and what you've said, you must be blind. If you don't understand my point, you've missed the point completely.
If you want to keep the Chinese and Cantonese together, don't give me a double standard, and say that the world's nations shouldn't be combined together.
And about the Champa Republic, of course I realized it was a sarcastic remark, but there's still fun for me in agreeing with it, as it does fit what I'm trying to do. If you believe yourself to be so incompetent that you have no way of changing things in the world (directly or indirectly) then you've just set your own limits.