I don't know the exact makeup of Taiwan's population which speak Min dialects, but I assume there to be a number of different Min dialects being spoken in Taiwan at present. If you elevate one, what of the others? Is there a cutoff point where you say, if you don't have X amount of speakers then the government should not promote it?
As others have mentioned, Taiwan is not a single language population, and for cohesion. Elevating all the dialects to an equal footing would also be problematic in terms of reduplication of the same information in many dialects and its facets.
Taiwan being a small nation is either very rich and can cope with it, or it could better spend its money on much more worthwhile endeavours than just reams and reams of translated info.
Dyl.
Hakkas Uniting Against Hokkiens In Taiwan
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Ong
Re: Hakkas Uniting Against Hokkiens In Taiwan
According to the Taiwanese Official Yearbook, about 70% of the Taiwanese ppl speak Taiwanese which is basically Southern Min dialect very similar to Hokkien as spoken in areas around Xiamen, Quanzhou and Zhangzhou in Southern Fujian Province. In any case, I believe a standard Taiwanese Hokkien written text is being used in Taiwanese schools.
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Sim
Re: Hakkas Uniting Against Hokkiens In Taiwan
>> By the way, why are the abovementioned regulars keeping quiet on this subject
Hi Ong,
Well, I’ve been quiet because:
1. I’ve been very busy at work and haven’t posted on anything much at all.
2. Not being Taiwanese (and more importantly, not being actually present and/or fully informed on the ins-and-outs of Hakka vs. Hokkien issue there), I hesitate to venture an opinion.
3. Politics and the interaction with human emotions is always very complex, and I don’t want to be involved in flame wars.
However, you asked, and I do have a bit of spare time, so here are some answers...
A) I do agree with some of what Andrew said:
>> Personally I welcome formal Hokkien teaching, standardisation
>> and government involvement in such issues such as UTF. At the
>> same time I would welcome the same things for Hakka and other
>> non-Mandarin Chinese languages.
As to a slightly different area (“a” and “b” added by me, for ease of reference):
>> a) Hokkien has survived hundreds of years without being the Guanhua.
>> In fact it would be a completely different (and less rich/complex)
>> language if it did not have the external guanhua influence.
>> b) I see no reason why it cannot do the same now, as long as it is
>> taught as an optional subject in schools.
I agree completely with “a”, but disagree very slightly with “b”. A language taught as an option in school is a nice gesture to recognising a minority, and *may* help slightly to stop it’s decline (if it is declining), but in general, it’s people speaking it in every day life, on the streets, which keeps a language alive.
Hokkien (or any other dialect) may have survived for hundreds of years, even when Mandarin was the “official” language of China, but that was all in pre-modern times. Since the arrival (say after the middle of the 20th century) of mass media and standardized school curricula, regional forms / dialects have been under threat / disappearing at a rate hitherto unknown. [ Examples of this can be seen in many countries in North-West Europe, where most schoolkids cannot even understand the local dialect any more, whereas their parents understand but don’t speak it, and their grandparents both understand and speak it. ], For centuries, the courts of justice and the government administration of China may have been carried out in Guanhua, but the daily life of the people at all levels of society (the street, the farm, the market and even (I believe) secondary school and business) remained the local dialect. Now, in both the PRC as well as in Taiwan, so much of that has been replaced by Mandarin that I don’t think dialect will necessarily survive without more support than just a “language option” in schools. [ Having said that, I realise that Shanghainese shows no signs of disappearing from Shanghai, nor Cantonese from Guangzhou. ]
B) I also agree with Dylan’s point of view that it costs a lot of (perhaps unnecessary) energy and time translating to and from various languages within the same community. If everyone in that community already speaks another (common) language, I would think it would be more practical (emotional issues aside...) to use that language as a standard. [ Having said *that*, I'm nevertheless happy that Hokkien is experiencing a revival because it is acting as a symbol of local Taiwanese identity (at least for the 70% native Taiwanese speakers. ]
C) As to Lee Kuan Yew’s destroying Hokkien in Singapore, for years, I was very angry with him for doing so. I guess I’ve mellowed a bit in my old age, because my reasoning now goes something like this:
1. Singapore was largely Hokkien speaking, but not entirely. Promoting Hokkien at the expense of the other dialects would not have been entirely fair. [ In fact, this seems to me to be exactly what is happening in Taiwan now: many people on the streets can speak Taiwanese, so on the surface, it’s a Taiwanese-speaking place. But as soon as one starts to “promote” Taiwanese, the people who speak Taiwanese reasonably well, but for whom it is not their home language (i.e. the Hakkas, or any other Taiwanese minority) say: “hey, why should this language get promoted, it’s not my home language”. ]
2. Even within Hokkien, there was no standard (the typical problem with all non-standard / non-national languages). So, even if LKY had wanted to promote Hokkien, it would have been difficult to know exactly *what* to promote. [ Andrew said this as well in his reply ].
3. In *economic* terms, there was nothing to be gained by promoting the use of Hokkien among the Chinese there. On the other hand (again on *economic* terms), there was everything to be gained by promoting Mandarin - namely, ease of trade contacts with the PRC and Taiwan.
4. From the point of view of science and culture on the “world-level”, there was nothing to be gained from promoting Hokkien, and there was from promoting Mandarin (access to scientific publications and novels, poetry etc written in the PRC and Taiwan).
5. Finally, (and I believe this is said in official circles in Singapore also), dialect-identity tended to fragment the Chinese in Singapore into their individual dialect groups, whereas promoting Mandarin was an attempt to unite the dialect groups. The (political) fragmentation of the Chinese in other parts of S.E.Asia had led to them to being more easily pushed around, and I think LKY was trying to get out of such a situation in Singapore.
When one bears in mind that LKY and his party managed to transform Singapore from a “poor S.E. Asian country” into a major economic success, I think I’m less hard on him now than I used to be (who would EVER have imagined that I’d become an apologist for LKY!!!).
Having said all that, I do still mourn the loss of Hokkien in Singapore. But I treat it now as a “personal issue”, arising purely from the fact that I’m Hokkien-speaking and would like to see more Hokkien spoken. I no longer draw any deeper conclusions, in the field of politics or culture.
[%sig%]
Hi Ong,
Well, I’ve been quiet because:
1. I’ve been very busy at work and haven’t posted on anything much at all.
2. Not being Taiwanese (and more importantly, not being actually present and/or fully informed on the ins-and-outs of Hakka vs. Hokkien issue there), I hesitate to venture an opinion.
3. Politics and the interaction with human emotions is always very complex, and I don’t want to be involved in flame wars.
However, you asked, and I do have a bit of spare time, so here are some answers...
A) I do agree with some of what Andrew said:
>> Personally I welcome formal Hokkien teaching, standardisation
>> and government involvement in such issues such as UTF. At the
>> same time I would welcome the same things for Hakka and other
>> non-Mandarin Chinese languages.
As to a slightly different area (“a” and “b” added by me, for ease of reference):
>> a) Hokkien has survived hundreds of years without being the Guanhua.
>> In fact it would be a completely different (and less rich/complex)
>> language if it did not have the external guanhua influence.
>> b) I see no reason why it cannot do the same now, as long as it is
>> taught as an optional subject in schools.
I agree completely with “a”, but disagree very slightly with “b”. A language taught as an option in school is a nice gesture to recognising a minority, and *may* help slightly to stop it’s decline (if it is declining), but in general, it’s people speaking it in every day life, on the streets, which keeps a language alive.
Hokkien (or any other dialect) may have survived for hundreds of years, even when Mandarin was the “official” language of China, but that was all in pre-modern times. Since the arrival (say after the middle of the 20th century) of mass media and standardized school curricula, regional forms / dialects have been under threat / disappearing at a rate hitherto unknown. [ Examples of this can be seen in many countries in North-West Europe, where most schoolkids cannot even understand the local dialect any more, whereas their parents understand but don’t speak it, and their grandparents both understand and speak it. ], For centuries, the courts of justice and the government administration of China may have been carried out in Guanhua, but the daily life of the people at all levels of society (the street, the farm, the market and even (I believe) secondary school and business) remained the local dialect. Now, in both the PRC as well as in Taiwan, so much of that has been replaced by Mandarin that I don’t think dialect will necessarily survive without more support than just a “language option” in schools. [ Having said that, I realise that Shanghainese shows no signs of disappearing from Shanghai, nor Cantonese from Guangzhou. ]
B) I also agree with Dylan’s point of view that it costs a lot of (perhaps unnecessary) energy and time translating to and from various languages within the same community. If everyone in that community already speaks another (common) language, I would think it would be more practical (emotional issues aside...) to use that language as a standard. [ Having said *that*, I'm nevertheless happy that Hokkien is experiencing a revival because it is acting as a symbol of local Taiwanese identity (at least for the 70% native Taiwanese speakers. ]
C) As to Lee Kuan Yew’s destroying Hokkien in Singapore, for years, I was very angry with him for doing so. I guess I’ve mellowed a bit in my old age, because my reasoning now goes something like this:
1. Singapore was largely Hokkien speaking, but not entirely. Promoting Hokkien at the expense of the other dialects would not have been entirely fair. [ In fact, this seems to me to be exactly what is happening in Taiwan now: many people on the streets can speak Taiwanese, so on the surface, it’s a Taiwanese-speaking place. But as soon as one starts to “promote” Taiwanese, the people who speak Taiwanese reasonably well, but for whom it is not their home language (i.e. the Hakkas, or any other Taiwanese minority) say: “hey, why should this language get promoted, it’s not my home language”. ]
2. Even within Hokkien, there was no standard (the typical problem with all non-standard / non-national languages). So, even if LKY had wanted to promote Hokkien, it would have been difficult to know exactly *what* to promote. [ Andrew said this as well in his reply ].
3. In *economic* terms, there was nothing to be gained by promoting the use of Hokkien among the Chinese there. On the other hand (again on *economic* terms), there was everything to be gained by promoting Mandarin - namely, ease of trade contacts with the PRC and Taiwan.
4. From the point of view of science and culture on the “world-level”, there was nothing to be gained from promoting Hokkien, and there was from promoting Mandarin (access to scientific publications and novels, poetry etc written in the PRC and Taiwan).
5. Finally, (and I believe this is said in official circles in Singapore also), dialect-identity tended to fragment the Chinese in Singapore into their individual dialect groups, whereas promoting Mandarin was an attempt to unite the dialect groups. The (political) fragmentation of the Chinese in other parts of S.E.Asia had led to them to being more easily pushed around, and I think LKY was trying to get out of such a situation in Singapore.
When one bears in mind that LKY and his party managed to transform Singapore from a “poor S.E. Asian country” into a major economic success, I think I’m less hard on him now than I used to be (who would EVER have imagined that I’d become an apologist for LKY!!!).
Having said all that, I do still mourn the loss of Hokkien in Singapore. But I treat it now as a “personal issue”, arising purely from the fact that I’m Hokkien-speaking and would like to see more Hokkien spoken. I no longer draw any deeper conclusions, in the field of politics or culture.
[%sig%]
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A-Hiong
Re: Hakkas Uniting Against Hokkiens In Taiwan
I think this issue will come down the whether Taiwan wants to remain a united island or an island that will become split by linguistic discrimination. It is more logical and economical to keep Mandarin as the official language and keep it the language of the government. The best way to keep Hokkien alive is through mass media, like how the Cantonese have kept their language alive. Being an ABC, I noticed many Cantonese people only wanted to learn their dialect. And the reason why these people wanted to learn only their dialect is because so they could understand Hong Kong movies, soap operas, music, etc...better. I notice kids here don't want to learn, its their parents who force them to learn but they become more receptive when they find out that there's so many things out there for them to get into. Like Manhwa...that's the case for Mandarin. If Taiwanese media keeps up with the Hokkien media, I'm sure preservation will be fine. Its all about giving them a reason to learn. Business and logic wise there's no reason...If I only speak Hokkien I can't do business in Hong Kong! I can't talk to people in Beijing or Shanghai...there's not logic. There's not unity either. Just chaos, its asking for pandora's box to be open.
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Niuc
Re: Hakkas Uniting Against Hokkiens In Taiwan
I strongly agree with Sim's points. For Hokkien (and any languages) to survive, not only it needs to be taught as a subject in schools, but more to daily usage. I don't understand why Hokkiens should speak Mandarin among themselves, particularly within a Hokkien family. I strongly believe that we should speak our ancestral language (i.e. mother tongue, be it Hokkien, Hakka, Cantonese, Maori, Sioux, etc) in our family and with people who share the same ancestral language. Of course to communicate with people from different linguistic group, we should speak a lingua franca, in this case is Mandarin for Chinese.
I strongly agree that Mandarin is a good lingua franca for all Chinese, that's why it's call Putonghua (common vernacular). All Chinese are encouraged to know Mandarin, but don't be extreme e.g. to call people who doesn't know Mandarin as not chinese enough. It shouldn't be a shame for a Chinese not to know Mandarin. Should our ancestors be ashamed for not knowing Mandarin? Were they less chinese? Of course not! Mandarin does not determine our identity!
Indeed Mandarin is very important, economically and socially. It's also very rewarding to know it. If there are so many non-Chinese well versed in Mandarin, it's no doubt for us as Chinese to learn this sister-language of our ancestral's. But this shouldn't deteriorate our passion for our own language. No matter how un-economical our language is, it is our heritage.
Mandarin as a common language for Chinese shouldn't pose any threat to other Chinese languages. The promotion of Mandarin as the lingua france is not a problem. The real problem lies in the lie propagated by many groups (including Singapore government and Malaysian Chinese associations) that Mandarin is our mother tongue. The fact is: IT IS NOT!!! I have read so many articles, advertisements in Singaporean media (even some Taiwanese TV stations!) promoting Mandarin as THE mother tongue of Chinese people. I really feel bad on how the educated Chinese authority trying to promote Mandarin (a good cause) by using a big big lie. Well, then you may ask me why I didn't write to the media? Yes, your answer is as good as mine: I don't want to end up in jail or going bankrupt! I will gladly doing the promotion for Mandarin as a common language, not as a mother tongue.
For Taiwan, I agree that Mandarin should be the national language, the common language and the language of instruction (in school). As for Singapore, I agree that English serves the role better than Mandarin (btw the national language here is Malay). Although neither Hokkien nor Hakka (nor any aboriginal languages) should be the national language of Taiwan, they should be taught in schools and given support to flourish. A-Hiong made a very good point that we need to keep our languages alive through mass media. To support this, institutionalized education is needed. Hongkong media are supported by Cantonese education during British rule (please correct me if I am wrong). Shanghainese, although very much a living vernacular, is also dying because no formal education are provided. I read some articles that in Shanghai, people go to KTV to sing Mandarin, English, Cantonese, Taiwanese songs but no Shanghainese songs available. How ridiculous! Many Shanghainese professors are hardline supporters of Mandarin and keep advising Shanghainese to discard their ancestral languages. What a pity! I know that some of Hokkien people are also doing this 'treachery' act against their own heritage. Nonetheless I hope our ancestral languages (any) won't go this way. I hope they all will survive.
[%sig%]
I strongly agree that Mandarin is a good lingua franca for all Chinese, that's why it's call Putonghua (common vernacular). All Chinese are encouraged to know Mandarin, but don't be extreme e.g. to call people who doesn't know Mandarin as not chinese enough. It shouldn't be a shame for a Chinese not to know Mandarin. Should our ancestors be ashamed for not knowing Mandarin? Were they less chinese? Of course not! Mandarin does not determine our identity!
Indeed Mandarin is very important, economically and socially. It's also very rewarding to know it. If there are so many non-Chinese well versed in Mandarin, it's no doubt for us as Chinese to learn this sister-language of our ancestral's. But this shouldn't deteriorate our passion for our own language. No matter how un-economical our language is, it is our heritage.
Mandarin as a common language for Chinese shouldn't pose any threat to other Chinese languages. The promotion of Mandarin as the lingua france is not a problem. The real problem lies in the lie propagated by many groups (including Singapore government and Malaysian Chinese associations) that Mandarin is our mother tongue. The fact is: IT IS NOT!!! I have read so many articles, advertisements in Singaporean media (even some Taiwanese TV stations!) promoting Mandarin as THE mother tongue of Chinese people. I really feel bad on how the educated Chinese authority trying to promote Mandarin (a good cause) by using a big big lie. Well, then you may ask me why I didn't write to the media? Yes, your answer is as good as mine: I don't want to end up in jail or going bankrupt! I will gladly doing the promotion for Mandarin as a common language, not as a mother tongue.
For Taiwan, I agree that Mandarin should be the national language, the common language and the language of instruction (in school). As for Singapore, I agree that English serves the role better than Mandarin (btw the national language here is Malay). Although neither Hokkien nor Hakka (nor any aboriginal languages) should be the national language of Taiwan, they should be taught in schools and given support to flourish. A-Hiong made a very good point that we need to keep our languages alive through mass media. To support this, institutionalized education is needed. Hongkong media are supported by Cantonese education during British rule (please correct me if I am wrong). Shanghainese, although very much a living vernacular, is also dying because no formal education are provided. I read some articles that in Shanghai, people go to KTV to sing Mandarin, English, Cantonese, Taiwanese songs but no Shanghainese songs available. How ridiculous! Many Shanghainese professors are hardline supporters of Mandarin and keep advising Shanghainese to discard their ancestral languages. What a pity! I know that some of Hokkien people are also doing this 'treachery' act against their own heritage. Nonetheless I hope our ancestral languages (any) won't go this way. I hope they all will survive.
[%sig%]
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A-Hiong
Re: Hakkas Uniting Against Hokkiens In Taiwan
Its sad that most of these governments can't take the moderate route in providing good education in the lingua franca (mandarin) and providing good education allowing everyone to keep their languages. I agree, Singapore and Malaysia has had an extreme view on these issues but I also believe it should be important that these government should at least provide the "choice" to learn their mother tongue. Seriously what does language have to do with any hazard in the media to the general public? It doesn't, providing programing in any language doesn't promote any criminal or terrorist activity, what would be wrong with the use of these language in the media? I think there's an idea that in China they want a central language to control the population. Yes, Mandarin should be our lingua franca to communicate amongst each other. Yes, the education system should allow instruction of different Chinese languages. No, we don't need to make some 150 different languages official. There can be a moderate route which can fill in many people's criteria and keep these languages alive. If small European nations with bilingual or multilingual students can do it...why can't Chinese people do it? Instead of risking our unity by overpromoting diversity or risking diversity by overpromoting unity, we should make sure that there is a balance in which our society can function as a whole!
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lim eng di
Re: Hakkas Uniting Against Hokkiens In Taiwan
To give more food for thought, here are some ruminations on related language issues using Teochiu (my mother tongue) as an example:
The Importance of Media:
I totally agree with those who have mentioned this in previous posts: Media is the key to keeping a language alive. In the modern world, having media in any given language will give the speakers of that language something to be interested in, something to reinforce its usage. This is especially important when national language policies of a given country support the use of a lingua franca over that of the given language. For Teochiu, there is much less media than there is in Hokkien, and obviously less than Cantonese and Mandarin. In fact, let me sum up what the Teochiu world of media has to offer: lots of Teochiu Operas, 1 or 2 albums created in Malaysia/Singapore, A few dozen albums from Mainland China (1980s!), various comedy cds, no newspapers or anything written as far as i know. This dearth actually lead me to see Hokkien as a source of my personal entertainment and interest. I listen to Taiwanese music, and pay attention to those occasional films laden with Hokkien/Singlish from Singapore. I do feel a certain connection to this fellow Minnan language. My dream would be to have media in Teochiu. The chances of this happening are actually quite likely, the only catch is that who would care? Hopefully the Teochiu diaspora still can understand enough Teochiu!
Shameless Teochiu Plug:
Visit Gaginang, our Teochiu website!
www.gaginang.org
The Importance of Media:
I totally agree with those who have mentioned this in previous posts: Media is the key to keeping a language alive. In the modern world, having media in any given language will give the speakers of that language something to be interested in, something to reinforce its usage. This is especially important when national language policies of a given country support the use of a lingua franca over that of the given language. For Teochiu, there is much less media than there is in Hokkien, and obviously less than Cantonese and Mandarin. In fact, let me sum up what the Teochiu world of media has to offer: lots of Teochiu Operas, 1 or 2 albums created in Malaysia/Singapore, A few dozen albums from Mainland China (1980s!), various comedy cds, no newspapers or anything written as far as i know. This dearth actually lead me to see Hokkien as a source of my personal entertainment and interest. I listen to Taiwanese music, and pay attention to those occasional films laden with Hokkien/Singlish from Singapore. I do feel a certain connection to this fellow Minnan language. My dream would be to have media in Teochiu. The chances of this happening are actually quite likely, the only catch is that who would care? Hopefully the Teochiu diaspora still can understand enough Teochiu!
Shameless Teochiu Plug:
Visit Gaginang, our Teochiu website!
www.gaginang.org
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Niuc
Re: Hakkas Uniting Against Hokkiens In Taiwan
Hi Lim Eng Di
Many people find that Teochiu is very musical, so do I. Teochiu sounds like song, especially when spoken by ladies. Personally I always feel that Teochiu and Hokkien are 'twins'. I also hope that Teochiu will flourish. Actually the chance is real high since many Teochew people are very successful e.g. Hongkong tycoon Li Ka Shing. If they have the passion for Teochiu language/culture, it'll be much more easier.
[%sig%]
Many people find that Teochiu is very musical, so do I. Teochiu sounds like song, especially when spoken by ladies. Personally I always feel that Teochiu and Hokkien are 'twins'. I also hope that Teochiu will flourish. Actually the chance is real high since many Teochew people are very successful e.g. Hongkong tycoon Li Ka Shing. If they have the passion for Teochiu language/culture, it'll be much more easier.
[%sig%]
A truly beautiful message which shd be read by all Hokkiens
What a truly beautiful message which I think would be more pertinent to be posted under the thread "Taiwanese Hokkiens should unite to preserve their heritage (culture & language)". I believe this message would make quite an impact if it can be translated into Chinese and published in major newspapers in Taiwan which are mainly read by Taiwanese Hokkiens. As it is, I think very few Taiwanese Hokkiens read English, let alone visit this site.
With best regards,
BHYeo
With best regards,
BHYeo