Hi everyone,
It's been very quiet here for quite a while. Pity that the recent new activity is mostly some cryptic poems!
Here is an issue which has puzzled me for a while. In the form of Penang Hokkien which I speak, we have two phrases which mean "He/she is (not) a follower of the traditional Chinese folk religion" or "He/she prays (does not pray) to the traditional Chinese gods", namely:
1. "i (bo) pai sin"
or
2. "i (bo) pai ang-kong"
The first phrase is clear enough to me. Presumably, this is "伊(无)拜神". It's the second phrase, with the term "ang-kong", which interests me.
I seem to recall reading somewhere that the term "ang-kong" 红公 (?) comes from the god Guan Yu (whom we call Guan Kong), who is traditionally portrayed with a red face.
My questions are:
1. Is this correct? I.e. would one write this phrase as "伊(无)拜红公", and does the 红 come from Guan Yu's red face?
2. If so, then it would seem to me that - strictly speaking - the term "i pai ang-kong" should mean only that someone is a devotee of Guan Yu, not any/all the traditional Chinese gods.
3. Is my impression correct that in Penang, this term means any Chinese gods, not just Guan Yu?
Thanks,
Sim.
Traditional Chinese gods
Re: Traditional Chinese gods
Hi, Sim,
Yes, the Forum has been rather quiet of late.
I always had the impression that:
1. ăng-kōng was written as 翁公.
2. It was written the same as for ăng-kŏng-â 翁公仔, i.e. doll/mannequin (no disrespect meant by equating the word for "god" to the word for "doll") - only differences being the lower-flat tone for kong, and the suffix -a. Compare with the Cantonese gung-jai 公仔 for doll/mannequin/figurine.
Comments welcome.
Yes, the Forum has been rather quiet of late.
I always had the impression that:
1. ăng-kōng was written as 翁公.
2. It was written the same as for ăng-kŏng-â 翁公仔, i.e. doll/mannequin (no disrespect meant by equating the word for "god" to the word for "doll") - only differences being the lower-flat tone for kong, and the suffix -a. Compare with the Cantonese gung-jai 公仔 for doll/mannequin/figurine.
Comments welcome.
Re: Traditional Chinese gods
Hi Mark,
[Damn! Lost my previous reply, so have to try to reconstruct it from memory.]
Great to hear from you. Thanks very much for your response.
Now that I have a character for "ang", I'll look up what Douglas/Barclay say about it when I get home.
I hope to be more active again in the future.
SimL
P.S. Thank you to the moderators for removing the "poem noise" of the last few weeks. I was afraid no one would see my question, with all the other stuff around it.
[Damn! Lost my previous reply, so have to try to reconstruct it from memory.]
Great to hear from you. Thanks very much for your response.
Now that I have a character for "ang", I'll look up what Douglas/Barclay say about it when I get home.
I hope to be more active again in the future.
SimL
P.S. Thank you to the moderators for removing the "poem noise" of the last few weeks. I was afraid no one would see my question, with all the other stuff around it.
Re: Traditional Chinese gods
Hi, Sim,
I had the impression that Douglas' dictionary was purely Romanised, was not aware that it had Chinese characters.
You will probably find 翁 āng/ōng listed as "husband".
Cheers,
Mark
I had the impression that Douglas' dictionary was purely Romanised, was not aware that it had Chinese characters.
You will probably find 翁 āng/ōng listed as "husband".
Cheers,
Mark
Re: Traditional Chinese gods
Hi Mark,
You're right, the Douglas is pure POJ, but the Barclay supplement has characters (my edition has them both bound in one volume). Not only that, but both Douglas and Barclay list lots of ci2, so I'm keen to look for ang-kong and ang-kong-a in either section.
Regards,
SimL
You're right, the Douglas is pure POJ, but the Barclay supplement has characters (my edition has them both bound in one volume). Not only that, but both Douglas and Barclay list lots of ci2, so I'm keen to look for ang-kong and ang-kong-a in either section.
Regards,
SimL
Re: Traditional Chinese gods
Hi Mark,
Below, I’ve combined and summarized the information in Douglas and Barclay. I’m also simplifying slightly, by not giving the details of Chang Chew, Tang Oa~ and Amoy usage, which Douglas gives for the listed compounds.
According to Barclay, there is:
1) The character 公 with literary pronunciation “kong1”, colloquial pronunciation “ang1”, meaning “(a duke), a husband”.
2) The character 翁 with literary pronunciation “ong1”, colloquial pronunciation “ang1”, meaning “an old man”.
According to Douglas, the following compounds are all written with 公 (Douglas never gives characters, but it gives the literary pronunciation of the syllable, so I am able to relate it to the Barclay character):
o) “ang1-sin5” = “an idol”;
o) “ang1-hut8” = “idols in general”;
o) “ang1-kong1-tsO2” = “an idol”;
o) “ang1-kong1” = “an idol”;
o) “mui~5-ang1-a4” = “mng5-sin5” = “figures painted on doors”;
o) “chioh8-ang1” = “stone images at graves or temples”
Now, I’m definitely not saying that you’re wrong. I have an enormous respect for your knowledge and research. I’m only recording here that Douglas/Barclay believe that for the usage on this posting, “ang1” is 公 rather than 翁.
Of course, if one believes Douglas/Barclay, this makes writing the word “ang-kong” very troublesome, because “kong1” is also written 公!
Regards,
SimL
Below, I’ve combined and summarized the information in Douglas and Barclay. I’m also simplifying slightly, by not giving the details of Chang Chew, Tang Oa~ and Amoy usage, which Douglas gives for the listed compounds.
According to Barclay, there is:
1) The character 公 with literary pronunciation “kong1”, colloquial pronunciation “ang1”, meaning “(a duke), a husband”.
2) The character 翁 with literary pronunciation “ong1”, colloquial pronunciation “ang1”, meaning “an old man”.
According to Douglas, the following compounds are all written with 公 (Douglas never gives characters, but it gives the literary pronunciation of the syllable, so I am able to relate it to the Barclay character):
o) “ang1-sin5” = “an idol”;
o) “ang1-hut8” = “idols in general”;
o) “ang1-kong1-tsO2” = “an idol”;
o) “ang1-kong1” = “an idol”;
o) “mui~5-ang1-a4” = “mng5-sin5” = “figures painted on doors”;
o) “chioh8-ang1” = “stone images at graves or temples”
Now, I’m definitely not saying that you’re wrong. I have an enormous respect for your knowledge and research. I’m only recording here that Douglas/Barclay believe that for the usage on this posting, “ang1” is 公 rather than 翁.
Of course, if one believes Douglas/Barclay, this makes writing the word “ang-kong” very troublesome, because “kong1” is also written 公!
Regards,
SimL
Re: Traditional Chinese gods
Hi Sim & Mark
So glad to see you guys here again after quite a long while
In Bagansiapiapi, ang1-kong1 in that context means "idol" or "doll", but it's seldom used and has bad connotation. If not mistaken, "berhala" in Malaysian sometimes used publicly to describe gods' statues, while in Indonesian "berhala" means idol and is a demeaning term. There they usually refer to themselves as 拜神 'pai3 sin5' and 拜佛 'pai3 put8' ("Buddhist", although this term can mean believers of Chinese folk religions as well). Put8 is colloquial pronunciation for Buddha 佛 (lit. hut8).
So glad to see you guys here again after quite a long while
In Bagansiapiapi, ang1-kong1 in that context means "idol" or "doll", but it's seldom used and has bad connotation. If not mistaken, "berhala" in Malaysian sometimes used publicly to describe gods' statues, while in Indonesian "berhala" means idol and is a demeaning term. There they usually refer to themselves as 拜神 'pai3 sin5' and 拜佛 'pai3 put8' ("Buddhist", although this term can mean believers of Chinese folk religions as well). Put8 is colloquial pronunciation for Buddha 佛 (lit. hut8).
Re: Traditional Chinese gods
Hi Niuc,
Yes, it's great to be back. I've not done much with Hokkien in the past year, but I hope to be more active again. Despite a really immense effort, my attempts at learning Mandarin have yielded such poor results that I'm no longer actively trying to master it any more. I'll just carry on my old way, learning a few characters here, a few characters there. This will mean that I have more time for Hokkien again.
SimL
Yes, it's great to be back. I've not done much with Hokkien in the past year, but I hope to be more active again. Despite a really immense effort, my attempts at learning Mandarin have yielded such poor results that I'm no longer actively trying to master it any more. I'll just carry on my old way, learning a few characters here, a few characters there. This will mean that I have more time for Hokkien again.
SimL
Re: Traditional Chinese gods
Oh, I forgot to say: thanks for your very interesting input, Niuc.
It's fascinating how a certain word or phrase can have bad connotations in one (sub-)culture, but not have them in another. It would appear that in Bagansiapiapi both "ang1-kong1" and "berhala" have negative connotations, but not in Malaysia. Certainly, in Penang, "ang1-kong1" is a perfectly normal word which we use for "(a) god".
I seem to remember something like that for "ang" (=husband) and "bO" (=wife), but there the difference was based on time. In my father's generation (and perhaps only in his particular Baba sub-culture), these were considered very low-class words, whereas in my generation (and perhaps only in my particular sub-culture of speaking Hokkien at school during recess), these were completely normal words. I know that my father used "ta-pO-lang" instead of "ang", but I don't know what he used instead of "bO". [Perhaps this has been discussed on the Forum already!]
Similarly, to this day, I find it very difficult to use the word "lu" (=you) to an elder - it was considered *very* rude, when I was young. For example, in speaking to my grandmother (when I was young, she's now long gone), it was totally impossible to ask "lu be khi bo?" (= do you want to go?). Instead, one had to say "a-ma be khi bo?" (= does grandmother want to go?). This was when asking her directly, not when asking someone else *about* her. Perhaps this too has changed over time - I don't know what the situation is with "lu" in Malaysia and Indonesia nowadays. My other relatives who migrated to Australia all seem very comfortable saying "lu" to their elders - I'm the only one who still doesn't like doing it.
SimL
It's fascinating how a certain word or phrase can have bad connotations in one (sub-)culture, but not have them in another. It would appear that in Bagansiapiapi both "ang1-kong1" and "berhala" have negative connotations, but not in Malaysia. Certainly, in Penang, "ang1-kong1" is a perfectly normal word which we use for "(a) god".
I seem to remember something like that for "ang" (=husband) and "bO" (=wife), but there the difference was based on time. In my father's generation (and perhaps only in his particular Baba sub-culture), these were considered very low-class words, whereas in my generation (and perhaps only in my particular sub-culture of speaking Hokkien at school during recess), these were completely normal words. I know that my father used "ta-pO-lang" instead of "ang", but I don't know what he used instead of "bO". [Perhaps this has been discussed on the Forum already!]
Similarly, to this day, I find it very difficult to use the word "lu" (=you) to an elder - it was considered *very* rude, when I was young. For example, in speaking to my grandmother (when I was young, she's now long gone), it was totally impossible to ask "lu be khi bo?" (= do you want to go?). Instead, one had to say "a-ma be khi bo?" (= does grandmother want to go?). This was when asking her directly, not when asking someone else *about* her. Perhaps this too has changed over time - I don't know what the situation is with "lu" in Malaysia and Indonesia nowadays. My other relatives who migrated to Australia all seem very comfortable saying "lu" to their elders - I'm the only one who still doesn't like doing it.
SimL
Re: Traditional Chinese gods
Hi Sim
Indeed it is fascinating. The more polite terms for "bo`2" (wife) are 家內 "ke1-lai7" and 家後 "ke1-au7". The former is also borrowed into Japanese ("kanai").
Your way of avoiding using "lu" (you) to an elder is very similar to Bahasa Indonesia. More than that, some people in Jakarta usually use their own name instead of pronoun 'I' ("saya") when talking to their parents. And their parents also usually use their name instead of 'you' ("kamu") to them.
Our variant of Hokkien has no problem using "ly2" (you) to an elder, in this case much like Mandarin, so we would say "a-ma, ly ber khy bo?" or "a-ma, ly ber khy a-mai?". Without "a-ma" it is rude, without "ly" it sounds like asking someone else about her, although it's still acceptable. What do you say when you're asking someone about her in that context?
Indeed it is fascinating. The more polite terms for "bo`2" (wife) are 家內 "ke1-lai7" and 家後 "ke1-au7". The former is also borrowed into Japanese ("kanai").
Your way of avoiding using "lu" (you) to an elder is very similar to Bahasa Indonesia. More than that, some people in Jakarta usually use their own name instead of pronoun 'I' ("saya") when talking to their parents. And their parents also usually use their name instead of 'you' ("kamu") to them.
Our variant of Hokkien has no problem using "ly2" (you) to an elder, in this case much like Mandarin, so we would say "a-ma, ly ber khy bo?" or "a-ma, ly ber khy a-mai?". Without "a-ma" it is rude, without "ly" it sounds like asking someone else about her, although it's still acceptable. What do you say when you're asking someone about her in that context?