Ta-ke ho.
Here are a few sentences I want to use to find out how express myself better in Penang Hokkien. How do people say these? Some of them I can guess, but I don;t know if they are right or not.
This house isn’t as big as that one. Chi-le chhu bo ha-le chhu an-ne toa.
How heavy is this thing? (no idea)
Can you lift it up? I can but he can’t. Chi-le mih-kiaN lu (lift) e khi bo?
It’s so heavy I can’t lift it up. An-ne tang, wa (lift?) be khi
He speaks too quickly, I can’t understand him. I kong wa siauN kin, wa be hiau thiaN.
He can run faster than me. I e-sai chau kha kin koe wa (I'm sure this one is wrong)
When he speaks quickly I can’t understand. (?)
It is the connecting particle I'd like to find out for this last sentence. In Taiwanese it is "ka" so "I kong wa kong ka kin e-si, wa be hiau thiaN."
I have some more sentences like this...but a little at a time.
Sentence patterns for Penang Hokkien Grammar
Re: Sentence patterns for Penang Hokkien Grammar
Hi Ah-bin
汝好 Ly ho
My Hokkien is not the same as Penang, so I would comment based on my variant, just for additional reference. Sim, Mark and others will give you better answers.
'han-ni' or 'hia-ni' is most probably from 'hit-a-ni', 'hit' = that, so it's like "that much, that big", shorten to 'han'.
To use better classifier, we would say: cit-kai* chu bo hit-kai* chu han tua. 'kai*1' is colloquial reading for 'king1' 間 (keng1 in Penang). In my variant, we can also say 'cit-kai* chu bo hit-kai* chu e tua'.
Shorter form is: cit-kai* chu bo hit-kai* chu tua.
Even shorter: 'cit-kai* chu bo hit-kai* tua' or 'cit-kai* bo hit-kai* chu tua'.
Shorter form: drop 'u' (have).
Even shorter: drop 'mng-kia*' -> 'cit-e dua-tang?'
In Medan Hokkien, they say 'kng tian-ua' (pick-up the phone), which sounds hilarious in my Hokkien (using 'gia8' = 'giah'), imagining the telephone must be very big. I am not sure if this is also the case for Penang Hokkien. It's interesting that different dialects of the same language usually have this kind of "misunderstandings"
汝好 Ly ho
My Hokkien is not the same as Penang, so I would comment based on my variant, just for additional reference. Sim, Mark and others will give you better answers.
Yours in my variant would sound: cit-e chu bo hit-e chu han(-ni) tua. (I prefer to write 'c' and 'ch' rather than 'ch' and 'chh'.)Ah-bin wrote: This house isn’t as big as that one. Chi-le chhu bo ha-le chhu an-ne toa.
'han-ni' or 'hia-ni' is most probably from 'hit-a-ni', 'hit' = that, so it's like "that much, that big", shorten to 'han'.
To use better classifier, we would say: cit-kai* chu bo hit-kai* chu han tua. 'kai*1' is colloquial reading for 'king1' 間 (keng1 in Penang). In my variant, we can also say 'cit-kai* chu bo hit-kai* chu e tua'.
Shorter form is: cit-kai* chu bo hit-kai* chu tua.
Even shorter: 'cit-kai* chu bo hit-kai* tua' or 'cit-kai* bo hit-kai* chu tua'.
Cit-e mng-kia* u dua-tang? (mng-kia* = mih-kia*, dua = jua)How heavy is this thing? (no idea)
Shorter form: drop 'u' (have).
Even shorter: drop 'mng-kia*' -> 'cit-e dua-tang?'
Depends on how big is the thing, lift can be 'gia8', 'kng1', 'ta*1' etc.Can you lift it up? I can but he can’t. Chi-le mih-kiaN lu (lift) e khi bo?
Assuming the thing is quite big, I would say: 'han-tang, gua kng bue khiai'. 'khiai' is the shorter form of 'khi-lai'.It’s so heavy I can’t lift it up. An-ne tang, wa (lift?) be khi
In Medan Hokkien, they say 'kng tian-ua' (pick-up the phone), which sounds hilarious in my Hokkien (using 'gia8' = 'giah'), imagining the telephone must be very big. I am not sure if this is also the case for Penang Hokkien. It's interesting that different dialects of the same language usually have this kind of "misunderstandings"
Yours in my variant is 'i kong siu* kin, gua bue-hiau thia*'. However, 'bue-hiau thia*' leans more toward not understanding the language itself, so I prefer to say 'i kong siu* kin, gua thia* bo'.He speaks too quickly, I can’t understand him. I kong wa siauN kin, wa be hiau thiaN.
Yours is acceptable in my variant (i e-sai cau kha kin ker gua). Yet 'e-sai' is more about permission, so we can just say 'e' (drop 'sai'). To be more "natural", I would say: i e cau pi gua kha kin.He can run faster than me. I e-sai chau kha kin koe wa (I'm sure this one is wrong)
I na kong (siu*) kin gua thia* bo.When he speaks quickly I can’t understand. (?)
Actually it's not 'ka' but 'kha' as in your example above, 'kha' = more.It is the connecting particle I'd like to find out for this last sentence. In Taiwanese it is "ka" so "I kong wa kong ka kin e-si, wa be hiau thiaN."
-
Andrew
Re: Sentence patterns for Penang Hokkien Grammar
We would say tai-kE 大家 or tak-e 逐個Ah-bin wrote:Ta-ke ho.
Chit-keng chhu bo hit-keng an-ne toaThis house isn’t as big as that one. Chi-le chhu bo ha-le chhu an-ne toa.
Chit-e mih-kiaN joah tang?How heavy is this thing? (no idea)
Chit-e mih-kiaN, lu e gia khi (lai) be?Can you lift it up? I can but he can’t. Chi-le mih-kiaN lu (lift) e khi bo?
i an-ne tang, (g)oa gia be khiIt’s so heavy I can’t lift it up. An-ne tang, wa (lift?) be khi
i kong-oa siON khoai, (g)oa thiaN boHe speaks too quickly, I can’t understand him. I kong wa siauN kin, wa be hiau thiaN.
Kin is not really used that much in Penang, I think.
i e chau kha khoai koe (g)oaHe can run faster than me. I e-sai chau kha kin koe wa (I'm sure this one is wrong)
I may be rusty, but would it be "i kong-oa (kong) kha khoai e si, (g)oa thiaN bo"? I know in Mandarin you would need to repeat the kong, but I'm not sure if you need to in Penang Hokkien.When he speaks quickly I can’t understand. (?)
It is the connecting particle I'd like to find out for this last sentence. In Taiwanese it is "ka" so "I kong wa kong ka kin e-si, wa be hiau thiaN."
Re: Sentence patterns for Penang Hokkien Grammar
Hi All,
Great responses!
I've taken the liberty to standardize all the responses so far, and present them all under one another. I think this helps to enable us to compare the different forms.
The convention I've adopted is:
o) "(" and ")" for optional words
o) "[" and "]" for additional comment
o) "/" for alternatives
o) "B" = Ah-bin, "N" = Niuc, "A" = Andrew, "S" = Sim
Also (more controversially!), I've standardized POJ "ch/chh" to "c/ch", and POJ "oa" to "ua", and the nasalisation "*" to "N". I don't mean to offend anyone, nor to imply that I think negatively of POJ or any other system of orthography. I only do it to enable the differences to show up more easily. For this reason, I've also changed the original capitalization or punctuation. In line with this, I've introduced extra spaces between words, in order for all the equivalents to line up under one another, also to enable the differences to be more easily seen.
This house isn’t as big as that one.
How heavy is this thing?
Can you lift it up? I can but he can’t.
It’s so heavy I can’t lift it up.
He speaks too quickly, I can’t understand him.
He can run faster than me.
When he speaks quickly I can’t understand.
Notes:
o) As with Ah-bin, I use "ci-le" as the informal form of "cit-e" (and "hi-le"/"he-le" as the informal form of "hit-e"). I think this intrusive "-l-" was mentioned here in the Forum many years ago. With other measure words than "e", I would also drop the "-t" of "cit/hit" in informal speech: "ci-ciah/hi-ciah kau" (this/that dog), "ci-bue/hi-bue hu" (this/that fish), etc.
o) In my variant "-h" is dropped whenever it's in a compound, not at the end of the compound. So, I say "mi-kiaN" rather than "mih-kiaN"; "a-kiaN" instead of "ah-kiaN" (duckling); "so-hun" instead of "soh-hun" (to smoke); etc.
o) I would definitely use "keng" instead of the more general "e" in the context of "chu". I'm not familiar with Niuc's "kaiN" as a measure word.
o) I agree with Niuc about the shades of meaning for "gia" and "kng". We only use "kng" for quite large AND heavy objects. I would not use "kng" for small and heavy objects, or large and light objects. At a guess, for me, it would probably also have to be larger than (say) 1" x 0.5" x 0.5" (30 cm x 15 cm x 15 cm), and it would have to be heavier than a large heavy book (e.g. one volume of an encyclopedia). For a 3 kg metal ball the size of a tennis ball, or a very large rattan basket, I would not use "kng". So "kng tian-ua" would also cause me to laugh. This is similar to "kuiN mng" for "to shut the door", where in Penang we would say "kham muiN". Here, "kuiN" sounds to us like "lock up the door" (so that it can't escape)!
o) As with Andrew (and well known about Penang Hokkien), the "g" of "gua" is optional. I guess I almost never use it.
o) I agree with Andrew that "kin" is hardly ever used in for "fast" in Penang. The usual word is "khuai". Of course, "important" remains "iau-kin".
o) For "can you lift?", I do say Andrew's "lu e gia khi (lai) be?", but other alternatives are: "lu e gia khi (lai) bo?" ("bo" instead of "be") and "lu gia e khi be/bo?" (switching "e gia khi" to "gia e khi", and no "lai").
o) I agree with Niuc that "e-sai" is for permission, and would also leave out the "sai". One idiomatic use of "e-sai" (unrelated to permission) is when asked about the quality of something, or how one is feeling. If the answer is "average, not too bad, acceptable", then one can say "e-sai". I have always believed that this related to the Malaysian English term "can do", as an answer. E.g. "How are things?", "How are you?", "What the new assistant like?", "Does the food taste ok?". If it's not particularly good (but not particularly bad), then "can do" / "e-sai" is a common answer. I suppose it ties in with the other Malaysian English expression "No can do" = "be-sai", where it *does* have a connection to permission.
o) I agree with Niuc that "b(u)e-hiau thiaN" means "don't understand a language" rather than not being able to make out the specific words. I too would say "thiaN bo". As with Niuc, I'd use "kha" not "ka" for "more" (but perhaps this was just a typo on Ah-bin's part).
o) As for Andrew's small doubt: yes, in my variant of Penang Hokkien, the repetition of the "kong", is optional: "i kong-ua kha khuai e si, ua thiaN bo". When I hear it with the repeated "kong", it doesn't sound wrong, but I would probably never spontaneously say it with the repeated "kong".
o) If in English one wanted to say "IF he speaks quickly I can’t understand" rather than "WHEN ...", then I would render that "i na kong-ua kha khuai, ua thiaN bo".
Regards,
SimL
Great responses!
I've taken the liberty to standardize all the responses so far, and present them all under one another. I think this helps to enable us to compare the different forms.
The convention I've adopted is:
o) "(" and ")" for optional words
o) "[" and "]" for additional comment
o) "/" for alternatives
o) "B" = Ah-bin, "N" = Niuc, "A" = Andrew, "S" = Sim
Also (more controversially!), I've standardized POJ "ch/chh" to "c/ch", and POJ "oa" to "ua", and the nasalisation "*" to "N". I don't mean to offend anyone, nor to imply that I think negatively of POJ or any other system of orthography. I only do it to enable the differences to show up more easily. For this reason, I've also changed the original capitalization or punctuation. In line with this, I've introduced extra spaces between words, in order for all the equivalents to line up under one another, also to enable the differences to be more easily seen.
This house isn’t as big as that one.
Code: Select all
B: ci-le chu bo ha-le chu an-ne tua
N: cit-e/kaiN (chu) bo hit-e chu (han(-ni)/e) tua
A: cit-keng chu bo hit-keng an-ne tua
S: cit-keng chu pi hit-keng bo an-nE tua
Code: Select all
B: [no idea]
N: cit-e mng-kiaN (u) dua tang?
A: cit-e mih-kiaN juah tang?
S: cit-e mih-kiaN juah tang?
Code: Select all
B: ci-le mih-kiaN, lu [lift] e khi bo?
N: [not given]
A: cit-e mih-kiaN, lu e gia khi (lai) be?
S: cit-e mih-kiaN, lu e gia khi (lai) be?
Code: Select all
B: an-ne tang, wa [lift?] be khi
N: (cit-e) han -tang, gua kng bue khiai [=khi-lai]
A: i an-ne tang, (g)ua gia be khi
S: i an-nE tang, ua gia be khi
Code: Select all
B: i kong wa siauN kin, wa be hiau thiaN
N: i kong siuN kin, gua thiaN bo
A: i kong-ua siON khuai, (g)ua thiaN bo
S: i kong-ua siauN khuai, ua thiaN bo
Code: Select all
B: i e-sai cau kha kin koe wa [I'm sure this one is wrong]
N: i e cau pi gua kha kin
A: i e cau kha khuai koe [g]ua
S: i e cau kha khuai ka ua
Code: Select all
B: [?] [Taiwanese: "i kong wa kong ka kin e-si, wa be hiau thiaN"]
N: i na kong (siuN) kin gua thiaN bo
A: i kong-ua (kong) kha khuai e si, (g)ua thiaN bo
S: i kong-ua kha khuai e si, ua thiaN bo
o) As with Ah-bin, I use "ci-le" as the informal form of "cit-e" (and "hi-le"/"he-le" as the informal form of "hit-e"). I think this intrusive "-l-" was mentioned here in the Forum many years ago. With other measure words than "e", I would also drop the "-t" of "cit/hit" in informal speech: "ci-ciah/hi-ciah kau" (this/that dog), "ci-bue/hi-bue hu" (this/that fish), etc.
o) In my variant "-h" is dropped whenever it's in a compound, not at the end of the compound. So, I say "mi-kiaN" rather than "mih-kiaN"; "a-kiaN" instead of "ah-kiaN" (duckling); "so-hun" instead of "soh-hun" (to smoke); etc.
o) I would definitely use "keng" instead of the more general "e" in the context of "chu". I'm not familiar with Niuc's "kaiN" as a measure word.
o) I agree with Niuc about the shades of meaning for "gia" and "kng". We only use "kng" for quite large AND heavy objects. I would not use "kng" for small and heavy objects, or large and light objects. At a guess, for me, it would probably also have to be larger than (say) 1" x 0.5" x 0.5" (30 cm x 15 cm x 15 cm), and it would have to be heavier than a large heavy book (e.g. one volume of an encyclopedia). For a 3 kg metal ball the size of a tennis ball, or a very large rattan basket, I would not use "kng". So "kng tian-ua" would also cause me to laugh. This is similar to "kuiN mng" for "to shut the door", where in Penang we would say "kham muiN". Here, "kuiN" sounds to us like "lock up the door" (so that it can't escape)!
o) As with Andrew (and well known about Penang Hokkien), the "g" of "gua" is optional. I guess I almost never use it.
o) I agree with Andrew that "kin" is hardly ever used in for "fast" in Penang. The usual word is "khuai". Of course, "important" remains "iau-kin".
o) For "can you lift?", I do say Andrew's "lu e gia khi (lai) be?", but other alternatives are: "lu e gia khi (lai) bo?" ("bo" instead of "be") and "lu gia e khi be/bo?" (switching "e gia khi" to "gia e khi", and no "lai").
o) I agree with Niuc that "e-sai" is for permission, and would also leave out the "sai". One idiomatic use of "e-sai" (unrelated to permission) is when asked about the quality of something, or how one is feeling. If the answer is "average, not too bad, acceptable", then one can say "e-sai". I have always believed that this related to the Malaysian English term "can do", as an answer. E.g. "How are things?", "How are you?", "What the new assistant like?", "Does the food taste ok?". If it's not particularly good (but not particularly bad), then "can do" / "e-sai" is a common answer. I suppose it ties in with the other Malaysian English expression "No can do" = "be-sai", where it *does* have a connection to permission.
o) I agree with Niuc that "b(u)e-hiau thiaN" means "don't understand a language" rather than not being able to make out the specific words. I too would say "thiaN bo". As with Niuc, I'd use "kha" not "ka" for "more" (but perhaps this was just a typo on Ah-bin's part).
o) As for Andrew's small doubt: yes, in my variant of Penang Hokkien, the repetition of the "kong", is optional: "i kong-ua kha khuai e si, ua thiaN bo". When I hear it with the repeated "kong", it doesn't sound wrong, but I would probably never spontaneously say it with the repeated "kong".
o) If in English one wanted to say "IF he speaks quickly I can’t understand" rather than "WHEN ...", then I would render that "i na kong-ua kha khuai, ua thiaN bo".
Regards,
SimL
Re: Sentence patterns for Penang Hokkien Grammar
Kam-sia, kam-sia lu-lang!
I have some more, but I'll take these and digest them first.
I have some more, but I'll take these and digest them first.
Re: Sentence patterns for Penang Hokkien Grammar
>> Can you lift it up? I can but he can’t.
I just noticed that nobody who responded gave a rendering of the second part of this one.
Personally, I would say "tapi" for the "but", and that would be perfectly correct Penang Hokkien, so my rendering would be "ci-le mi-kiaN, lu gia e khi bo? ua e, tapi i be". However, I suspect that Ah-bin might be trying to get the non-borrowed-Malay term for "but". Of course, we all know that "but" is "tan si" in Hokkien, but I'm certainly not sure if it's appropriate in this context.
Andrew, Niuc, what would you say?
SimL
I just noticed that nobody who responded gave a rendering of the second part of this one.
Personally, I would say "tapi" for the "but", and that would be perfectly correct Penang Hokkien, so my rendering would be "ci-le mi-kiaN, lu gia e khi bo? ua e, tapi i be". However, I suspect that Ah-bin might be trying to get the non-borrowed-Malay term for "but". Of course, we all know that "but" is "tan si" in Hokkien, but I'm certainly not sure if it's appropriate in this context.
Andrew, Niuc, what would you say?
SimL
Last edited by SimL on Wed Mar 25, 2009 3:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Sentence patterns for Penang Hokkien Grammar
Hi Sim
In Bagansiapiapi, there are many using 'tapi' for 'tan-si' too. Here we also can use 'na' 若 as "but", so the most naturally colloquial way to say that is: 'Cit-e ly gia e khi bue? Gua e, na i bue.'
物 is both 'mng8' and 'mi8' (mih8), and we use both depending on context.
'A bue' = "or cannot", the tones for 'a bue' is as usual 'a2-bue7'; however without 'a2', the tone for 'bue' at the end of a question is neutralized.
When you wrote 'so-hun' (to smoke), did you mean 'sio-hun' 燒薰 ?
間 can be pronounced as 'kan1', 'king1' or 'kai*1' in my Hokkien, depends on context and meaning. 'Kai*1' is more for classifier, although 'king1' also is. 房間 is always 'pang5-king1'. 時間 is always 'si5-kan1'. Teochew has 'koi*1' instead of 'kai*'.
Another sample is 先 that can be 'sian1', 'sing1' or 'sai*1'. 先生 has at least 3 meanings, depends on the pronunciation:
1. "teacher" -> 'sian1-si*1'
2. "mister" -> 'sian0_si*0' (both tones neutralized), shorten to 先 'sian0'
3. "born earlier" -> 'sai*-si*1' or 'sing1-si*1'
Basically 'sai*1' and 'sing1' are interchangable, meaning "earlier/before". If not mistaken, in Teochew 'sai*1' is 'soi*1'.
In my variant, we say 關門 'kui*1-mng5' (to shut the door, with or without locking) without connotation "to lock the door up" (as to put it in jail), we seldom use 'kham3-mng5'. If we want to emphasize on locking, we say 鎖門 'so2-mng5'. The phrase '... ka7 mng5 kha8_e0' means to close the door without locking, may be still have slight gap in between.
Actually 快 is 'khuai3', while 'kin2' most probably is 緊. This is interesting since 緊 "jin3" in Mandarin means "tight", while 'kin2' in Hokkien (usually) means "fast/quick", and English has "fast" meaning both "tight" and "quick". Is that just a pure coincidence or these two concepts are related somehow?
In my variant usually: 'Cit-e (mng-kia*) ly gia e khi (a) bue? Gua e, tan-si i bue.'Can you lift it up? I can but he can’t.
In Bagansiapiapi, there are many using 'tapi' for 'tan-si' too. Here we also can use 'na' 若 as "but", so the most naturally colloquial way to say that is: 'Cit-e ly gia e khi bue? Gua e, na i bue.'
物 is both 'mng8' and 'mi8' (mih8), and we use both depending on context.
'A bue' = "or cannot", the tones for 'a bue' is as usual 'a2-bue7'; however without 'a2', the tone for 'bue' at the end of a question is neutralized.
When you wrote 'so-hun' (to smoke), did you mean 'sio-hun' 燒薰 ?
間 can be pronounced as 'kan1', 'king1' or 'kai*1' in my Hokkien, depends on context and meaning. 'Kai*1' is more for classifier, although 'king1' also is. 房間 is always 'pang5-king1'. 時間 is always 'si5-kan1'. Teochew has 'koi*1' instead of 'kai*'.
Another sample is 先 that can be 'sian1', 'sing1' or 'sai*1'. 先生 has at least 3 meanings, depends on the pronunciation:
1. "teacher" -> 'sian1-si*1'
2. "mister" -> 'sian0_si*0' (both tones neutralized), shorten to 先 'sian0'
3. "born earlier" -> 'sai*-si*1' or 'sing1-si*1'
Basically 'sai*1' and 'sing1' are interchangable, meaning "earlier/before". If not mistaken, in Teochew 'sai*1' is 'soi*1'.
In my variant, we say 關門 'kui*1-mng5' (to shut the door, with or without locking) without connotation "to lock the door up" (as to put it in jail), we seldom use 'kham3-mng5'. If we want to emphasize on locking, we say 鎖門 'so2-mng5'. The phrase '... ka7 mng5 kha8_e0' means to close the door without locking, may be still have slight gap in between.
Actually 快 is 'khuai3', while 'kin2' most probably is 緊. This is interesting since 緊 "jin3" in Mandarin means "tight", while 'kin2' in Hokkien (usually) means "fast/quick", and English has "fast" meaning both "tight" and "quick". Is that just a pure coincidence or these two concepts are related somehow?
You are right. However, I hardly feel any difference between "i kong kin e si" and "i na kong kin". In English they are more obvious, but somehow I don't sense that in my Hokkien.o) If in English one wanted to say "IF he speaks quickly I can’t understand" rather than "WHEN ...", then I would render that "i na kong-ua kha khuai, ua thiaN bo".
Re: Sentence patterns for Penang Hokkien Grammar
Hi Niuc,
1. >> When you wrote 'so-hun' (to smoke), did you mean 'sio-hun' 燒薰 ?
No, I mean the Hokkien verb "soh4" (= "to suck"). In my Hokkien, we distinguish two different usages of English "to suck".
a) To suck on a sweet (toffee, lollipop, lolly), as in "put in one's mouth and wet it with one's saliva until it slowly dissolves": "kam5"
and
b) To suck on a straw or soft fruit etc, as in "try to extract a liquid or gas through a small opening", e.g. sucking up the contents of a glass through a straw, sucking the raw contents of an egg through a small hole made at the end, etc: "soh4".
It's the latter I was thinking of, and we call the "smoking of cigarettes" soh4 hun1 ki1 (= "sucking smoke sticks").
2. >> 先 that can be 'sian1', 'sing1' or 'sai*1'.
Very interesting explanation! I only know the first two forms, for all the examples you give. Plus, Penang Hokkien pronounces the "-ing" forms "-eng".
3. >> If we want to emphasize on locking, we say 鎖門 'so2-mng5'
Yes, we have exactly the same distinction between "kham3" and "so2". My apologies, I'm sure I've mentioned the "putting of the door in jail" thing before.
4. >> English has "fast" meaning both "tight" and "quick".
I've always known of this strangeness in English, and I think I've read about whether or not they are related, but have now forgotten. I'll try and find out for you by looking up some books. Wonderful for you to notice the parallel to Hokkien+Mandarin though!
In the Chinese case, it makes some sense to me anyway... Whenever a situation is "tight" (i.e. urgent, pressing, etc), then things have to be handled "quickly". I've no idea if that is the relationship in Chinese, and certainly also not if that's the case for English.
5. I too hardly feel any difference between "i kong kin e si" and "i na kong kin/khuai", and more in English (but even then, slight, in many cases). Perhaps the distinction in English is larger because it makes more distinction between hypothetical cases ("if") and possible cases ("when"), for example by the use of subjunctive ("if he died, everyone would be sad", unlikely that he's going to die in the near future) and indicative ("if he dies, everyone will be sad", some possibility that he may die in the near future).
Regards,
SimL
1. >> When you wrote 'so-hun' (to smoke), did you mean 'sio-hun' 燒薰 ?
No, I mean the Hokkien verb "soh4" (= "to suck"). In my Hokkien, we distinguish two different usages of English "to suck".
a) To suck on a sweet (toffee, lollipop, lolly), as in "put in one's mouth and wet it with one's saliva until it slowly dissolves": "kam5"
and
b) To suck on a straw or soft fruit etc, as in "try to extract a liquid or gas through a small opening", e.g. sucking up the contents of a glass through a straw, sucking the raw contents of an egg through a small hole made at the end, etc: "soh4".
It's the latter I was thinking of, and we call the "smoking of cigarettes" soh4 hun1 ki1 (= "sucking smoke sticks").
2. >> 先 that can be 'sian1', 'sing1' or 'sai*1'.
Very interesting explanation! I only know the first two forms, for all the examples you give. Plus, Penang Hokkien pronounces the "-ing" forms "-eng".
3. >> If we want to emphasize on locking, we say 鎖門 'so2-mng5'
Yes, we have exactly the same distinction between "kham3" and "so2". My apologies, I'm sure I've mentioned the "putting of the door in jail" thing before
.4. >> English has "fast" meaning both "tight" and "quick".
I've always known of this strangeness in English, and I think I've read about whether or not they are related, but have now forgotten. I'll try and find out for you by looking up some books. Wonderful for you to notice the parallel to Hokkien+Mandarin though!
In the Chinese case, it makes some sense to me anyway... Whenever a situation is "tight" (i.e. urgent, pressing, etc), then things have to be handled "quickly". I've no idea if that is the relationship in Chinese, and certainly also not if that's the case for English.
5. I too hardly feel any difference between "i kong kin e si" and "i na kong kin/khuai", and more in English (but even then, slight, in many cases). Perhaps the distinction in English is larger because it makes more distinction between hypothetical cases ("if") and possible cases ("when"), for example by the use of subjunctive ("if he died, everyone would be sad", unlikely that he's going to die in the near future) and indicative ("if he dies, everyone will be sad", some possibility that he may die in the near future).
Regards,
SimL
Re: Sentence patterns for Penang Hokkien Grammar
Now here is another brain twister. In Amoy Hokkien there is a particle "chiah" that corresponds to cai 才 in Mandarin and sin-ji 先至 in Cantonese, but it seems to be absent from Penang Hokkien. In many of the Chinese languages there is something like this that they use to make sentences which correspond to English "not until" and "only then".
Does Penang Hokkien have that particle or not?
So "I didn't go back until five o'clock" Wa go-tiam chiah tuiN khi
"I can't leave until he arrives" Wa tan i lai liau chiah e sai khi
"He won't come back until next year" I mE-ni chiah lai
I asked the second of these sentences to the Penang Hokkien podcast forum before and got some very interesting answers from it. I have changed the spelling.
Wa beh sai khi, tan ka i lai thau-seng
Not that i didn't believe that is how to say it I'm just interested in what the "Ka" means here and if other sentences are formed this way and if "chiah" is used at all in Penang any more. it is quite an important particle for Mandarin.
Kam-sia lu-lang tau-kha-chiu wa.
Does Penang Hokkien have that particle or not?
So "I didn't go back until five o'clock" Wa go-tiam chiah tuiN khi
"I can't leave until he arrives" Wa tan i lai liau chiah e sai khi
"He won't come back until next year" I mE-ni chiah lai
I asked the second of these sentences to the Penang Hokkien podcast forum before and got some very interesting answers from it. I have changed the spelling.
Wa beh sai khi, tan ka i lai thau-seng
Not that i didn't believe that is how to say it I'm just interested in what the "Ka" means here and if other sentences are formed this way and if "chiah" is used at all in Penang any more. it is quite an important particle for Mandarin.
Kam-sia lu-lang tau-kha-chiu wa.
Re: Sentence patterns for Penang Hokkien Grammar
Hi Sim
To form a hypothetical case, I'd add the phrase 譬如講 'phi3-ju7-kong2' before the sentence.
O i c. In my variant it is 'su4'; 'kam5' is the same.No, I mean the Hokkien verb "soh4" (= "to suck"). In my Hokkien, we distinguish two different usages of English "to suck".
Chinese generally are very practical, reflected in their languages also... because it makes more distinction between hypothetical cases and possible cases ...
To form a hypothetical case, I'd add the phrase 譬如講 'phi3-ju7-kong2' before the sentence.