Questions about Penang Hokkien

[SimL]

Hi Ah-bin,

Yes, I have read that too, and it makes total sense to me, *for Hokkien*. What I'm still unsure about is to what extent that matches the actual phonetic reality of my own usage in Hokkien *and* English.

>> It means "horrible" or "scary", I guess (from context). I think it might be spelt "kit-li"
>> but I am not sure. The podcast uses it a lot when they are telling ghost stories.

My first guess is the word "gi3-li4" (sandhi tone of the first syllable).

In my usage, it means "creepy", but definitely not for ghosts - more for worms and mutilations, car accidents etc. A sort of "yucky" feeling or feeling of repulsion. Like if someone is scared of worms or snakes, then they would say "ua khuaN thang/cua pun e gili" (where the "pun" isn't really an "also", just something to help the grammar). Or if they don't like eating chicken heads (very commonly added into soup in my youth!), or intestines, then they would say "ua bo ciah ke-e-thau/tu-tO - gili" or "ua gili ciah ke-e-thau/tu-tO" or "ua ciah ke-e-thau/tu-tO gili" (in the last two cases, I guess, used as an adverb).

As you can see, this meaning shades in "horrible" or "scary", so its usage seems to have shifted in meaning from my usage in the 60's and 70's. Or it might always have been used in this way, just not by me and my family.

Another usage of the word is to say whether someone is ticklish or not: "i kiaN gili" and "i bo kiaN gili" is the standard way of saying "he's ticklish" and "he's not ticklish". This was a subject of great interest to me as a little child, because my maternal grandmother was not ticklish - to the extent of being *completely* unresponsive in all the standard tickle areas of sole of foot, stomach, armpit!. [Here "kiaN1" is "scared".]

I believe "gili" comes from a Malay word meaning "tickle" or "ticklish". Again, I suppose the meaning of "ticklish" shades into "visceral repulsion" (with some gradual jumps, I have to admit). Niuc, can you confirm this?

If so, we would seem to have a nice example of semantic drift:

"ticklish" [-> "emotionally ticklish" (unattested)] -> "emotionally repulsive" -> "scary"

Ah-bin, could you indicate the (sandhied) tones of your "ki-li", as that would help to support this idea, or otherwise?

Regards,
SimL

[Ah-bin]

That seems to explain it, thanks.

I would say it could have been ki1li2 (Ki-lî) or ki2li2 (kî-lî) but definitely not any of the others. I could see how it became creepy...the prickly, tickly feeling you get when you thiaⁿ-tióh kúi ê kò•-sū.... There must be another word for "scary" then, as in really frightening. My little PRC Hokkien dictionary says "kho-pha" but I am dubious.

[niuc]

Hi Sim

In Malay it is "geli" ('e' there is a schwa). In Indonesian it means ticklish or yucky feeling. For scary/horrible, it is "ngeri" ('e' = schwa), but I am not sure if this word exists in Malaysian.

[Ah-bin]

ua khuaN thang/cua pun e gili" (where the "pun" isn't really an "also", just something to help the grammar)

I see, that "pun" is probably the specifically Penang replacement for "lóng" (Wá chai i sī Hoán-á jī lâi-ê)

Is it then possible to say:
Wá chē-chhia chin kú pún ē bô-sóng.

For "I feel uncomfortable whenever I go in a car for a long time"

[SimL]

Hi Niuc,

Thanks for confirming that. No, I don't know the word "ngeri", but that's perhaps more an indication of my knowlege of Malay...

Hi Ah-bin,

I had a great chat with my parents on the phone this weekend, and asked a lot of questions about Hokkien vocab. Among which, I asked them what the word was which they would use for "frightening". They couldn't really think of a simple term, so what they came up with was "kiaN ka puaN si" (literally: "frightened until half dead"). Here again, the "ka" which seems to me to be an elided form of "kau".

I'll have to consult my notes again (which I don't have with me here), to see if there are any other points worth reporting to the Forum.

[SimL]

Oops, sorry, I don't think I explained that bit about "frightening" very well...

To say "X is frightening", they would say "X hO wa kiaN ka puaN si" (literally: "he give me frightened until half dead"). I suppose (just thinking off the top of my head now) "X is not particularly frightening" would be "X bo kong hO wa kiaN ka an-cuaN".

Hope that helps.

SimL

[SimL]

Is it then possible to say:
Wá chē-chhia chin kú pún ē bô-sóng.

For "I feel uncomfortable whenever I go in a car for a long time"

Yes, I think so. I think it's the same pattern as the one I gave, but it would be great if Mark or Andrew could confirm.

The only thing I'd correct is not grammatical, and that is the "chin ku". It sounds awfully Amoy to me . For PgHk, I'd recommend "cin-nia ku", or "ciaN ku", as discussed somewhere else...

SimL

[Ah-bin]

How to "start" in Penang Hokkien

It's easy to say "I'm learning Hokkien" - Wá (toā-tī) óh Hók-kiàn-uā, but how about "I start to learn Hokkien"?

Wá chai Tâi-oân, Ē-mûiⁿ ê lâng sī kóng “khai-sí” tapi Penang Hokkien Podcast ê ták-ták lâng sī iōng âng-mô•-uā ê “start”. There is another way i have noticed that they sometimes use, and that is with the particle khí 起.

Example: "Lú sī kí-sî thiaⁿ khí ê?" - When did you start listening?

Can this construction replace "start" altogether? It certainly seems more "native" Hokkien than "khai-sí" which is probably a recent introduction from the written language.

...and while I'm at it I've thought of another interesting particle "ê-sū" which seems to be used for giving reasons

Example:
I sī-m-sī bô suka lú sī Tng-lâng ê-sū? "Did he not like it that you were Chinese?"

This made me notice that "tāi-chì" for "affair" or "thing" is less commonly used in Penang, I have heard it once so far in "ū tāi-chì" but it sounded more like they were using it for "then there'll be trouble"

regards,

Ah-bin

[niuc]

Hi Sim

Indeed 'ka3' is another form for 'kau3' (到 arrive, until). Your sample 'kiaN ka puaN si' also exists in my variant, and in this context it sounds strange to use 'kau', better to use 'ka' here. Another 'kau3' is 教 (religion/education), as a verb it is pronounced as 'ka3' (to teach). So the pattern 'kau <-> ka' is regular.

[SimL]

Indeed 'ka3' is another form for 'kau3' (到 arrive, until). Your sample 'kiaN ka puaN si' also exists in my variant, and in this context it sounds strange to use 'kau', better to use 'ka' here.

Agreed. In my variant, it would be impossible to say "kiaN kau puaN si", it has to be "ka".

But IF that "ka" is short for "kau", how does one explain: "i cau kau ka cit-peng" (= "he ran up to here"), with even a "kau" in front of it?

Another 'kau3' is 教 (religion/education), as a verb it is pronounced as 'ka3' (to teach). So the pattern 'kau <-> ka' is regular.

Yes, I think I noticed that "ka3" in Douglas the other day. However, I say "kah4" for "to teach" (with the -h dropped in compounds, like "ka8-chEh" (literally "to teach books", which is the normal way to say "teach" (in a school))).

I clearly remember my parents once explaining to me when I was very young that there was a distinction between "ka3" (= "to instruct, order, command (someone to do something)" and "kah4" (= "to teach") [or vice versa], but my parents now totally deny that this is the case, and can't imagine that they ever told me that.

SimL