Sentence patterns for Penang Hokkien Grammar

[SimL]

Hi Ah-bin,

Yes, this "cia(h)" is still very much alive in Penang Hokkien. In fact, I'd say that it is the standard way to formulate this "not until", "only then" concept. It was the other way around for me: when I first came across Mandarin 才 cai2, I was completely mystified by the construct, and couldn't understand how to use it. It was only when I realised that it corresponded to Hokkien "cia(h)" (I'm unsure of the presence or absence of the -h, because I only use it in actual speech situations, where (in my variety) -h is dropped) that I managed to work out how to use it in Mandarin.

All the examples you give are "temporal", but the usage extends to non-temporal and not strictly temporal situations as well.

(Not strictly temporal) "i oh eng-bun ho-ho liau e si cia(h) e khi Eng-Kok khi thak-cheh" (= "He can only go to England to study when he has learnt English properly"). This is still "ultimately" temporal, even if not directly so.

(Non-temporal) "ua khuaN ua tong-kim u kau lui cia e tue lu khi khuaN hi" (= "I'll check (e.g. in my pocket), only if I have enough money will I be able to go with you to the movies"). This is not waiting for some future situation when I have enough money to accompany you to the movies, but just a conditional, for right now.

>> Wa beh sai khi, tan ka i lai thau-seng

This construction is perfectly understandable, but "i lai e si ua cia e sai khi" would be the more normal way to say it. Surprising that you hadn't come across the "cia(h)" construction in PgHk.

The "ka" I've always assumed was the elided form of "kau3" (= "until"), so "Wa beh sai khi, tan kau i lai thau-seng" (literally: "i not allowed go, wait UNTIL he come first"). But I am now slightly unsure, as I think one could also say "Wa beh sai khi, tan KAU KA i lai thau-seng", where your original "ka" would then be an abbreviation of "kau ka".

Whatever the origin, this "ka" is a very normal way of saying "until", even in non-temporal, i.e. spatial senses. E.g. "i cau ka lai cit-peng e ui" (= "he ran all the way to here"), and there it feels like an elided form of "kau".

Regards,
SimL

[SimL]

Oh, I forgot to add that by the most surprising of co-incidences, the Buddhist sermon I happen to be transcribing at the moment has precisely this elided form of "ka" instead of "kau".

[Ah-bin]

Ah, thank you SimL, that clears up the mystery, and it also makes it an awful lot easier for me to make sentences now, because I am quite used to the Mandarin pattern.
It may well have been used in the PgHK podcast, I was listening out for it all the time, but since I get usually only 50% of it, it may well have been hiding in the other 50%

The other languages I know have particles like this are Vietnamese (mới) and Cantonese (ji 至 or sin-ji先至) but I expect that most of the Sinitic languages have a similar construction.

I wonder if the pattern without ciah is a new one that comes from contact with English, si-m-si thak ang-mO-chheh e lang e iong kha che?

[Ah-bin]

...and I forgot to mention that I think the reason why the -h is dropped is because it is always used in connected speech, never at the end if a sentence. In many types of Hokkien, syllables ending in -h belonging to the 陰入 tone category such as 客 kheh21 and 肉 bah21 lose the h and change tones to become khe53 and ba53. (I'm sure you all know this already but I thought I had better write it anyway as a background to this question) Does the cia change tone to 53 as well, or stay as a low tone?

人客 lang22 - kheh2
客氣 khe53 - khi21

牛肉 gu22-bah2
肉粽 ba53-chang55

I've wondered about this sometimes because I have heard people say Kheh5-wa22 for "Hakka language", where I thought it would be khe53-wa22.

[SimL]

Hi!

>> He can run faster than me

>> A: i e cau kha khuai koe [g]ua
>> S: i e cau kha khuai ka ua

I was wondering about the difference between Andrew's "koe" and my "ka", and so I checked with my parents. They too (spontaneously) said "ka".

SimL

[SimL]

Hi Ah-bin,

All my (Hokkien) tone-4 syllables do indeed sandhi to high-ONLY in non-final position.

So:

人客 lang22 - khEh2
客氣 khE5 - khi21

牛肉 gu22-bah2
肉粽 ba5-cang21

Notice that I say cang21 粽, not cang55 (in final position).

My "cia" also definitely does this, i.e. I say cia5 in the (always) non-final position. Thanks the explanation which helps determine that there is actually an underlying "-h" in that word.

On a totally separate issue: I don't perceive a difference in tone contour between what you give as "lang22" and "gu22" (sandhied tone-5) vs. "khi21" and "cang21" (non-sandhied tone-3). I have a friend who can measure tone contours graphically, using the PC. I'd always thought that I said both sets of syllables as "22", but he measured a couple of them, and they do have a slight falling, perhaps 21. Because I had never thought there was any distinction, I didn't try very many different syllables in different positions (i.e. word-final vs non-word-final). I can ask him some time to record me again and measure my lang22", "gu22" (and other non-final tone-5 syllables) vs final tone-3 syllables.

SimL

[SimL]

O i c. In my variant it is 'su4'; 'kam5' is the same.

Hi Niuc,

Does your variety not say "su-hun" for "to smoke cigarettes"...?

SimL

[Ah-bin]

Ah, there you are, it's these little things that are hard to find out unless you ask a native speaker.

I have another question about making sentences about the future

When you come back maybe I won't be here. Is that "Lú tùiⁿ-lâi ê-sî, wá khó-lêng bē tī chit-peng."?

Best,

Ah-bin

[niuc]

Hi Sim

Does your variety not say "su-hun" for "to smoke cigarettes"...?

Yes, both 'su-hun' and 'sio-hun' are used.

[SimL]

When you come back maybe I won't be here. Is that "Lú tùiⁿ-lâi ê-sî, wá khó-lêng bē tī chit-peng."?

The first part is exactly how I would have said it. However, until I started transcribing some Buddhist sermons 1-2 weeks ago, I had never heard of "kho-leng". This is definitely not to say it's not used much in Penang, only that my PgHk is EXTREMELY limited. To get around not knowing this, I would have said:

"lu tuiN-lai e si, wa bo-tiaN-tioh bo ti ceng liau" (literally: "I not-definite not at here finish")

or

"lu tuiN-lai e si, wa m-cai koh-u ti ceng koh bo" (literally: "I don't know still-have at here still not")

The first of these suggests that I probably won't be here anymore, the second is completely neutral. "ceng1" is the elided form of "cit-peng" - note the difference in tone between "ceng1" and "peng5" (which is slightly puzzling, but definitely how I say it).

But these are of course just paraphrasing strategies, to cope with limited vocabulary.

Cheers,
SimL