Sentence patterns for Penang Hokkien Grammar

[Ah-bin]

But these are of course just paraphrasing strategies, to cope with limited vocabulary.

Maybe they are, but not necessarily. I think that some of the function words may not be commonly used in Penang because they weren't commonly used in ordinary people's speech in China either, and were transmitted into Hokkien when ordinary people had more contact with written styles of Chinese. Written styles use long sentences and need to be precise, whereas much of the spoken language can rely on situation and context.

I have a nice passage somewhere about the use of these words (and their absence) in a book called "Cantonese for Malayan Students" published around the same time as Bodman's Spoken Amoy Hokkien. I'll go off and find the direct quote.

I have noticed I've been writing cho (give) wrong for weeks now (as chO or cho'). I think I'll stop now...

[Andrew]

Hi Ah-bin,

Yes, this "cia(h)" is still very much alive in Penang Hokkien. In fact, I'd say that it is the standard way to formulate this "not until", "only then" concept. It was the other way around for me: when I first came across Mandarin 才 cai2, I was completely mystified by the construct, and couldn't understand how to use it. It was only when I realised that it corresponded to Hokkien "cia(h)" (I'm unsure of the presence or absence of the -h, because I only use it in actual speech situations, where (in my variety) -h is dropped) that I managed to work out how to use it in Mandarin.

Sim

That is strange - in my speech we invariably use 'ka(h)' in that sense, to the extent that I have heard people (mistakenly) sing "Ai piaN ka(h) e iaN".

e.g.
Kin-cio mia-cai ka(h) u - We won't have bananas until tomorrow
Cha koe-tiau ai iong bah-iu ka(h) u ho ciah - Koay teow needs to be fried in lard to be tasty
I peh-tiam ka(h) lai - He is only coming at eight o'clock

[Andrew]

Hi!

>> He can run faster than me

>> A: i e cau kha khuai koe [g]ua
>> S: i e cau kha khuai ka ua

I was wondering about the difference between Andrew's "koe" and my "ka", and so I checked with my parents. They too (spontaneously) said "ka".

SimL

I would instinctively say ka also, it's just that on an earlier thread on comparisons in Mandarin and Hokkien everyone else said it should be koe, so I thought I might have got it wrong. I'm glad you have cleared that up!

[SimL]

I would instinctively say ka also, it's just that on an earlier thread on comparisons in Mandarin and Hokkien everyone else said it should be koe, so I thought I might have got it wrong. I'm glad you have cleared that up!

Yes, I've even got a sentence where "my" monk (in the Buddhist sermons) says this, so it seems to be quite common PgHk usage. Thanks for confirming this!

[Ah-bin]

That quote from the book about Cantonese was

“The effect of education on the speech of the Chinese is twofold:

They become accustomed to reading and speaking Mandarin, and they adapt Mandarin phrases and constructions into Cantonese, they also tend to use more complicated sentences.

They also become accustomed to speaking English and they tend to adopt English modes of speech, and even, at times, will change the Cantonese order into an English, and quite un-Cantonese form.”

from Oakeley "Rules for Speaking Cantonese" (1950's) so please excuse the slightly colonial tone.

This made me think about some issues in Penang Hokkien.
So not knowing some of the literary constructions used in different styles of Hokkien does not necessarily mean that one’s Hokkien is inadequate. If a speaker can carry on a conversation in Hokkien without resorting to sentences in English to express more complicated ideas, then that is already sufficient. Replacing certain words or short phrases with English or Malay is another matter altogether, as it is necessary to have words for the many new things that have come into existence since the Hokkien migrations to Southeast Asia, or words for things native to Southeast Asia and unfamiliar to the Hokkien speakers in China or Taiwan. Some words (like "try" or "start") may not have had an exact equivalent in colloquial Hokkien to start with. That doesn't mean that these things could not be expressed in Hokkien, just that there were different ways of expressing the idea. Like adding "khoaN-mai" to a verb to mean "try" or "khi3" to a verb to mean "start to do"

[Andrew]

Hi Ah-bin,

Yes, this "cia(h)" is still very much alive in Penang Hokkien. In fact, I'd say that it is the standard way to formulate this "not until", "only then" concept. It was the other way around for me: when I first came across Mandarin 才 cai2, I was completely mystified by the construct, and couldn't understand how to use it. It was only when I realised that it corresponded to Hokkien "cia(h)" (I'm unsure of the presence or absence of the -h, because I only use it in actual speech situations, where (in my variety) -h is dropped) that I managed to work out how to use it in Mandarin.

Sim

That is strange - in my speech we invariably use 'ka(h)' in that sense, to the extent that I have heard people (mistakenly) sing "Ai piaN ka(h) e iaN".

e.g.
Kin-cio mia-cai ka(h) u - We won't have bananas until tomorrow
Cha koe-tiau ai iong bah-iu ka(h) u ho ciah - Koay teow needs to be fried in lard to be tasty
I peh-tiam ka(h) lai - He is only coming at eight o'clock

Sim - have you seen this message? I would like to know what you think.

[SimL]

That is strange - in my speech we invariably use 'ka(h)' in that sense, to the extent that I have heard people (mistakenly) sing "Ai piaN ka(h) e iaN".

e.g.
Kin-cio mia-cai ka(h) u - We won't have bananas until tomorrow
Cha koe-tiau ai iong bah-iu ka(h) u ho ciah - Koay teow needs to be fried in lard to be tasty
I peh-tiam ka(h) lai - He is only coming at eight o'clock

Hi Andrew,

Sorry, wasn't ignoring you. Must have missed seeing your posting completely. Can't imagine how that happened!

Yes, your form with "ka(h)" is quite familiar to me from my youth. I'd venture that it's even more common than my "cia(h)" form. Don't know why I didn't think of it, or why I thought of the "cia(h)" form. Perhaps my Hokkien is not "pure" PgHk, because of influences from my mother, who only learned PgHk after she married my father. Next phone call, I'll ask my dad his opinion on this.

SimL

[magal]

thanks its really great........

[SimL]

Yes, your form with "ka(h)" is quite familiar to me from my youth. I'd venture that it's even more common than my "cia(h)" form. Don't know why I didn't think of it, or why I thought of the "cia(h)" form. Perhaps my Hokkien is not "pure" PgHk, because of influences from my mother, who only learned PgHk after she married my father. Next phone call, I'll ask my dad his opinion on this.

I asked my parents on the weekend, and indeed, the form "ka" is the ONLY correct one for PgHk. My mother, who learnt PgHk as an adult, is particularly sure of this. My parents and I concluded that my "cia" is a contamination from my Amoy-speaking maternal relatives who lived in the south of the peninsular.

Thanks for pointing this out, Andrew. Perhaps I was also subliminally influenced by that song "ai piaN cia e iaN" which you mentioned - I'd listened to it a couple of months ago!

SimL

[ponnai]

Yours is acceptable in my variant (i e-sai cau kha kin ker gua). Yet 'e-sai' is more about permission, so we can just say 'e' (drop 'sai'). To be more "natural", I would say: i e cau pi gua kha kin.