How to "change" in Penang Hokkien

[SimL]

... Ah, now I have seen that "sua" twice. I'm guessing it is POJ "soah" which Hokkien dictionaries write as 煞. There are many explanations in Douglas, but I haven't consciously heard anyone use it yet. ...

Hi Ah-bin,

Hmmm... I looked at the definitions in Douglas/Barclay last night, and I am unsure whether the "sua"/"soa" we are talking about here is the same one as 煞. I'm familiar with this latter character, meaning "complete, finish".

Of course, I can see how a character meaning "complete, finish" might have evolved to have the modal senses of the "sua" in question (as in "complete, finish" -> "in the final analysis" -> "so" -> expresses causal connection -> intensifier), but still, I'm unsure. [There are no examples in Douglas/Barclay in the sense we have spoken about.]

BTW, one of the most common uses of the 'other' 煞 "suah" is in the (fixed) phrase "mai7 suah4!" This is used in a situation where you try to persuade someone to do something (e.g. to go somewhere, to try tasting something, etc). If you have tried for a while, and have been still unable to persuade them, and, if you wish to express your (slight or great) irritation at their unwillingness, then you would say "mai7 suah4!". It not only expresses your irritation, but also that you are at this point going to give up trying to persuade them any further (hence the "suah4" = "finish"). *

This is felt to be such a useful construction in Malaysia that a Malaysian English equivalent has been created. People say (in English): "don't want, done!", a literal rendering of "mai7 suah4!". I think any Malaysian speaking English will recognize and use this phrase. (It's even quite hard for me to realise that it's not permissible in other varieties of English.)

But this of course is quite a different modal use than the "sua" we have been talking about up to now. Does anyone else have an opinion on the appropriate character for this "sua"?

Regards,
SimL

* Note: In my usage of this "mai3 suah7!", there are actually four parameters which must be present. The first three I already mentioned: 1. having tried for a while, 2. (slight or great) irritation (a natural consequence of trying for a while), and 3. expressing the fact that you're no longer going to continue trying to persuade the other. There is however even a fourth factor which should be present. Namely, that the thing you are trying to persuade the person to do is perceived (by you, if not by them) as being "for the other person's own good" or "to the benefit of the other person". Hence it is typically used in the situations I describe - you want a friend to try a new dish because you think they will like the taste (or in any case be intrigued by it), or you want them to go for a ride on a roller-coaster, because you think they will enjoy it, etc. So, when they (steadfastly) refuse to do these things "for their own benefit", then you feel irritated and express it with this phrase.

I mention this fourth factor because I would not use this phrase in a situation where (say) I was trying to persuade someone to lend me a large sum of money, or to give me a lift to somewhere out of the way, in their car. After trying for a while, and still getting a "no", I would not say "mai7 suah4!", because the thing I'm trying to persuade them to do is for my benefit, not theirs (and hence any irritation on my part is less justified).

But this is perhaps idiosyncratic usage on my part, I don't know if others require this fourth factor.

[SimL]

Having thought about the "sua(h)" issue for a bit longer, I feel that I might need to soften my doubts about it being "煞".

I realised that there is the term 煞尾 "suah4-bue2", meaning "in the end", "it ended up", "in the final analysis". So, like "i1 suah4-bue2 bo5 khi3" (= "he ended up not going, it turned out that he didn't go"). In that usage, it shades very easily and gently into "i1 sua1 bo5 khi3" (= "so he didn't go").

Andrew: I'll look up what Douglas/Barclay say on 速仔 when I get home. Thanks for the alternative explanation.

SimL

[duaaagiii]

遂 (sui7) matches in meaning, although its pronunciation isn't a perfect match...

[SimL]

Hi duaaagii,

Thanks for this character. I'll check to see what Douglas says about it when I get home.

Is this 遂 used a lot in Taiwan, in the way I described? Not only is the vowel/diphthong different, but the tone too. In the sandhied form of the PgHk particle, it's high (short), so sua1(1). (Again, thanks to Ah-bin for pointing out how to see if a non-final syllable without an "-h" might actually have an "-h" in the citation form, even if one doesn't know the citation form because it never occurs in actual speech at the end of a phrase; namely, by looking at the length of the vowel: if short, then it has an "-h" in citation form.)

SimL

[duaaagiii]

煞 is much more commonly used to write suah4 than 遂 in Taiwan.

However, 遂 is often used in Classical Chinese and in older or more formal Mandarin literature.

[ponnai]

If expressing some sort of surprise, or stressing the unusual/dramatic nature of the change, one can use the modal particle "sua1" (sandhied tone): "i e tau-mO sua pien pEh khi". Does anyone know the hanzi for this "sua"?

[tadpole]

Yikes, you guys really ought to take a look at Tadpolenese at http://www.tadpolenese.com/ . The last sentence would be something like: "I e taaumou. suah bent beq`kyc;" And don't forget that Hokkien is a stereotonic language with tonal phrase structure, so mark the end of your tonal phrases! (That's what the little period at the end of "taaumou." is for.) Also mark your neutralized tones! (That's what the backquote in "`kyc" is for.) For tone tutorial take a look at http://www.tadpolenese.com/tutorial. I don't care what pinyin/romanization/spelling you guys use, but there are some basic phonetic features of the language that you can still follow.

The character you are looking for is 煞. If you want to find the Chinese characters, visit Taiwan's Ministry of Education's on-line dictionary: http://twblg.dict.edu.tw/tw/index.htm

詞目 煞　　　　部首：火 086-09-13
音讀 suah　
釋義 1.結束、停止。例：煞戲　suah-hì(戲散場)。
2.罷休、放手。例：煞煞去　suah-suah--khì(算了)。
3.怎麼、哪有。表反詰語氣。例：煞有　suah ū(哪有)、煞無　suah bô(怎麼沒有)。
4.竟然，表意外的意思。例：伊煞走去嫁翁。I suah tsáu khì kè-ang. (她竟然跑去嫁人。)　
5.抑制、阻止。例：煞癢　suah tsiūnn(止癢)。
6.為凶神所傷。例：煞著　suah--tio̍h(被鬼神傷到)。
7.凶神。例：凶神惡煞　hiong sîn ok suah。

又見音 sannh、sat