In Penang, we had a term “phue3-liu1-a0” (I write sandhi tones). It was used to describe like “rough boys” - not quite as aggressive or violent as “hooligan” or as bad as “criminal”, more a sort of “ruffian”, “bad boys who hang around in groups doing nothing”.
I haven’t been able to find it in Douglas/Barclay. Does anyone else know this term? Is it only used in Penang? Would this be written 皮鈕仔?
"ruffian"
Re: "ruffian"
I may have found an answer to my own question.
In *Mandarin*, apparently, there are the following terms:
地痞 (Twinbridge): di4 pi3 "local ruffian/riffraff"
流氓 (Twinbridge): liu2 mang2 "hoodlum, hooligan, gangster"
地痞流氓 (Far Eastern Chinese-English Dictionary): di4 pi3 liu2 mang2 "local bullies and loafers"
Perhaps the PgHk term is 痞流仔? Is there an equivalent in Taiwanese?
In Douglas/Barclay I stumbled across a term meaning (I think, from memory) "ruffian" or "gangster", written as "hoe-liu". Unfortunately, I forgot to write down the page reference, and now cannot find it again. (I'll look more carefully some other time). An alternative explanation is that "phue-liu" is a variant or corruption of this "hoe-liu".
SimL
In *Mandarin*, apparently, there are the following terms:
地痞 (Twinbridge): di4 pi3 "local ruffian/riffraff"
流氓 (Twinbridge): liu2 mang2 "hoodlum, hooligan, gangster"
地痞流氓 (Far Eastern Chinese-English Dictionary): di4 pi3 liu2 mang2 "local bullies and loafers"
Perhaps the PgHk term is 痞流仔? Is there an equivalent in Taiwanese?
In Douglas/Barclay I stumbled across a term meaning (I think, from memory) "ruffian" or "gangster", written as "hoe-liu". Unfortunately, I forgot to write down the page reference, and now cannot find it again. (I'll look more carefully some other time). An alternative explanation is that "phue-liu" is a variant or corruption of this "hoe-liu".
SimL
Re: "ruffian"
Sim, thanks for finding the characters!
Re: "ruffian"
Hi Niuc,
You're welcome. Nice to you see posting again.
Do you have such a term in your form of Hokkien?
SimL
You're welcome. Nice to you see posting again.
Do you have such a term in your form of Hokkien?
SimL
Re: "ruffian"
Hi Sim
Although rarely, I did hear the term 'pher5-liu1' (sandhi: 'pher3_liu1') as adjective with the same meaning. Can't remember if I ever heard it as a noun, yet 'pher5-liu1-a0' (sandhi: 'pher3_liu7_a0') sounds logical.
Usually we say 壞兒仔 'phai2-gin5-a0' (sandhi: 'phai5_gin3_a0' or 'phai5_gin8_a0') which literally means "bad kids", 壞子 'phai2-kia*2' for worse type (criminals), 太空兒仔 'thai3-khong1-gin5-a0' for those who are trendy and just hang around doing nothing. 太空 'thai3-kong1' actually means outer space but in my variant is also used as an adjective to describe people who are trendy but don't care much to think or do anything useful.
Although rarely, I did hear the term 'pher5-liu1' (sandhi: 'pher3_liu1') as adjective with the same meaning. Can't remember if I ever heard it as a noun, yet 'pher5-liu1-a0' (sandhi: 'pher3_liu7_a0') sounds logical.
Usually we say 壞兒仔 'phai2-gin5-a0' (sandhi: 'phai5_gin3_a0' or 'phai5_gin8_a0') which literally means "bad kids", 壞子 'phai2-kia*2' for worse type (criminals), 太空兒仔 'thai3-khong1-gin5-a0' for those who are trendy and just hang around doing nothing. 太空 'thai3-kong1' actually means outer space but in my variant is also used as an adjective to describe people who are trendy but don't care much to think or do anything useful.
Re: "ruffian"
Hi Niuc,
Great! Thanks for giving your version and usage of 'phue-liu', and the extra words
. Indeed, two of them are familiar to me too; specifically: 壞兒仔 'phai2-gin5-a0' and 壞子 'phai2-kia*2'. However, I don't know them well enough to describe the finer distinctions between them with much certainty, as you have done. For me, both are sort of "tough" guys. Perhaps 'phai2-gin5-a0' would be like a high-school dropout 14-18 years old, already perhaps taking drugs, verbally abusing people but not yet really violent, while a 'phai2-kia*2' would be late teens to mid-20's, carrying a knife and beating up people.
One small difference is that we nasalize "phainn2".
There is of course also 'sam3-seng1' (sam written with sandhi-tone), which has been borrowed into Malay. Again, here, I wouldn't be very confident to say what the precise difference between 'sam3-seng1' and the other three are.
Great! Thanks for giving your version and usage of 'phue-liu', and the extra words
. Indeed, two of them are familiar to me too; specifically: 壞兒仔 'phai2-gin5-a0' and 壞子 'phai2-kia*2'. However, I don't know them well enough to describe the finer distinctions between them with much certainty, as you have done. For me, both are sort of "tough" guys. Perhaps 'phai2-gin5-a0' would be like a high-school dropout 14-18 years old, already perhaps taking drugs, verbally abusing people but not yet really violent, while a 'phai2-kia*2' would be late teens to mid-20's, carrying a knife and beating up people.One small difference is that we nasalize "phainn2".
There is of course also 'sam3-seng1' (sam written with sandhi-tone), which has been borrowed into Malay. Again, here, I wouldn't be very confident to say what the precise difference between 'sam3-seng1' and the other three are.
Re: "ruffian"
Hi Sim
You're most welcome
Yeah, unlike other variants, indeed in my variant 壞 phai2 (bad) and 鼻 phi7 (nose) are not nasalized, although we have a lot of nasal colloquial pronunciations not common to others e.g. 間 kai*1 (room), 先 sai* (before, earlier), 硬 tai*7 (hard), 揀 kai*2 (to choose) etc.
For us, 'sam1-sing1' is a more generic term with wider meanings that include both. It implies those "bad guys" dress shabbily. I don't know the exact characters for this. It intrigued me though, as it sounds exactly the same as 三牲 ('sam1-sing1' three sacrifices, beside 五牲 'ngO2-sing1' five sacrifices).
You're most welcome
Yeah, unlike other variants, indeed in my variant 壞 phai2 (bad) and 鼻 phi7 (nose) are not nasalized, although we have a lot of nasal colloquial pronunciations not common to others e.g. 間 kai*1 (room), 先 sai* (before, earlier), 硬 tai*7 (hard), 揀 kai*2 (to choose) etc.For us, 'sam1-sing1' is a more generic term with wider meanings that include both. It implies those "bad guys" dress shabbily. I don't know the exact characters for this. It intrigued me though, as it sounds exactly the same as 三牲 ('sam1-sing1' three sacrifices, beside 五牲 'ngO2-sing1' five sacrifices).
Re: "ruffian"
Hi Niuc,
The latest word - samseng - reminded me of another usage (which perhaps existed only in my family).
The situation was where a group of kids did something naughty. Nothing major, just light stuff like climbing a tree which they shouldn't have, or messing up a pile of leaves which had been nicely raked up, or playing in a neighbour's garden when they were not supposed to. The kids would have been normally quite well-behaved (i.e. "kuai1"), and probably wouldn't have done it if one of the older kids (usually a boy) hadn't influenced them into doing it - i.e. acted as a "ring-leader", suggesting the action and hence pushing the other kids over their initial hesitation.
In such a situation, the "ring-leader" would be described as a "sam-seng thau5" (= "samseng head", i.e. "ring-leader"), as in "lu cai la! i ta-mai co sam-seng thau e" (= "you know how it is, he's always the ring-leader (when that group does something naughty)".
This was of course only a metaphorical usage of the term.
The latest word - samseng - reminded me of another usage (which perhaps existed only in my family).
The situation was where a group of kids did something naughty. Nothing major, just light stuff like climbing a tree which they shouldn't have, or messing up a pile of leaves which had been nicely raked up, or playing in a neighbour's garden when they were not supposed to. The kids would have been normally quite well-behaved (i.e. "kuai1"), and probably wouldn't have done it if one of the older kids (usually a boy) hadn't influenced them into doing it - i.e. acted as a "ring-leader", suggesting the action and hence pushing the other kids over their initial hesitation.
In such a situation, the "ring-leader" would be described as a "sam-seng thau5" (= "samseng head", i.e. "ring-leader"), as in "lu cai la! i ta-mai co sam-seng thau e" (= "you know how it is, he's always the ring-leader (when that group does something naughty)".
This was of course only a metaphorical usage of the term
.Re: "ruffian"
Hi Sim
Thanks for the detailed sample It can be used that way too in my variant, however usually it is used for more serious cases. How about in yours?
Thanks for the detailed sample
It can be used that way too in my variant, however usually it is used for more serious cases. How about in yours?Re: "ruffian"
Hi Niuc,
Thanks for your feedback.
Good to know that "sam-seng thau" means "gang leader" in the literal sense (which makes sense). I've never actually heard it used that way in my family - only the metaphorical usage, applied to youngish children. I'm planning on asking my parents about their usage of all these terms (including the one which was unfamliar to me: "thai-khong-gin-a") when next I get a chance.
SimL
Thanks for your feedback.
Good to know that "sam-seng thau" means "gang leader" in the literal sense (which makes sense). I've never actually heard it used that way in my family - only the metaphorical usage, applied to youngish children. I'm planning on asking my parents about their usage of all these terms (including the one which was unfamliar to me: "thai-khong-gin-a") when next I get a chance.
SimL