Old-fashioned Vocabulary in Penang Hokkien

Discussions on the Hokkien (Minnan) language.
SimL
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Re: Old-fashioned Vocabulary in Penang Hokkien

Post by SimL »

Hi Mark,
That is also my understanding based on my personal exposure to Penang Hokkien. There is another term that I hear only in Penang Hokkien - tēng-păng or tēng-băng (頂 [?]), which I nornally hear used in the context of "in the past / back then"
The phrase I use in this context is "teng2-pai2". The "teng2" is probably 頂 (but I appear to have a different tone from you), and the "pai2" is "occasion, time" as in "kui2-na5/7-pai2", "cit8-pai2", "nO7-pai2", "san1-pai2", etc (= "a number of times", "once", "twice", "three times", etc). But perhaps you're well aware of this one (I think my Amoy-speaking relatives say "tieng-pai" (or, more accurately: "ti<schwa>ng-pai"), so it's not unique to PgHk), and you're thinking of another phrase which I don't know.

My grandparents always had a tin of Quaker Oats in the kitchen - nice that you mention them! I remember clearly the logo of the face and black hat of the quaker painted on the outside of the tin. (I realise now that at the time I didn't know what quakers were, and never thought anything about it). However, we didn't use the brand name 老人麥 - we just called it the generic term 麥. But I have a slightly different pronunciation: we said "bEh8". (Now, I'm unsure whether this is a known PgHk pronunciation for "oats". This is because it was my Amoy-speaking grandparents who ate the stuff, and they pronounced it "beh8" or "beh4" (I'm a bit unsure about Amoy ru-tones). For all I know, my mother might have made the sound association of Amoy "e" to PgHk "E", and hence called it "bEh8" when speaking PgHk.

SimL

P.S. In Mandarin (and in Hokkien too), 幾個 can mean either "a few" or "how many", depending on context. However, I noticed when writing above that PgHk can make an explicit distinction between the two, by saying "kui-na-e" for "a few" and "kui-e" for "how many". Does anyone know how to write this "na" in characters? I don't know its citation tone, because it always occurs non-finally, but it has a tone-3 or tone-7 sandhi-tone.

Also, how does one write the "pai2" above in characters?
Mark Yong
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Re: Old-fashioned Vocabulary in Penang Hokkien

Post by Mark Yong »

Hi, Sim,

The tēng-păng/tēng-băng ( [?]) that I am referring to is a bit different in context from teng2-pai2. tēng-păng/tēng-băng ( [?]) as I understand it refers to 'the past' in general, whereas teng2-pai2 refers to a specific previous occasion(s).

If I am not mistaken, pai2 is written as - as in teng2-pai2 頂擺, cit8-pai2 一擺, nO7-pai2 兩擺, san1-pai2 三擺, etc. As for kui2-na5/7-pai2, I am venturing to guess that it is either 幾若擺 or 幾偌擺.

The quantitative noun that I hear more often than pai2 in Penang is tau2 (which has often befuddled some Amoy 廈門 speakers when I use it with them). I never got the Chinese character for it, though. Am very tempted to guess that it is simply .

I have heard pronounced both as bæk8 and bæh8 - the former being more common in my experience. But given the two possible 反切 fanqie readings 莫獲 and 莫白 as listed in 康熙字典, I guess both are possible. As to whether it is bæh8 or beh8, I think that one is simply a distinction between the Chiang Chiu 漳州 and Amoy 廈門 variants, e.g. bæh vs beh for , vs. he for .

Mark
SimL
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Re: Old-fashioned Vocabulary in Penang Hokkien

Post by SimL »

Hi Mark,

Thanks for the clarification on teng-pang/bang. No, I am not familiar with this term.

Yes, indeed "tau2" instead of "pai2" is very common in PgHk, and I've never heard it anywhere else. I wonder about assigning it to 到 though... the Etymology Page I usually check only has "ka3 kau3 tau3 to3 tO3" as the pronunciations of this character, i.e. no tone-2.

I agree completely on the "-æ-" vs "-e-" distinction for 麥. I was unfamiliar with the "-k" variant though, which is why I find it interesting that you found it more common. This is entirely possible, as I only ever spoke about this food within the family.

SimL
Ah-bin
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Re: Old-fashioned Vocabulary in Penang Hokkien

Post by Ah-bin »

The quantitative noun that I hear more often than 擺 pai2 in Penang is tau2 (which has often befuddled some Amoy 廈門 speakers when I use it with them). I never got the Chinese character for it, though. Am very tempted to guess that it is simply 到.
Yes, I notice John Ong uses "Téng-táu" for "in the past" all the time. The 閩南方言常用詞詞典 gives the character for táu as 搗 which, as I remember means "to pummel" in written Chinese.
I'm not sure about the capital "K-" in "Ko" in Ah-bin's original sentence. Was it perhaps a typo for "kO"? I have "ku-ca" 舊早 "former (times)" and "kO-ca" 古早 "ancient (times)". Perhaps in this context, "ku-ca" is better? [BTW, I'm only talking about my daily usage of Hokkien as a spoken language - I'm guessing at the hanzi here.
It was just a slip of the keys.... kū-chá 舊早 is the one I was trying for.

In the Buddhist sermons there is another word it seems like he is saying "ha-kú" which I suppose is ha (that) plus kú 久. This one seems like it means "a long time ago"
SimL
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Re: Old-fashioned Vocabulary in Penang Hokkien

Post by SimL »

Hi Ah-bin,

Triggered by your posting I have been trying to ponder (as I'm inclined to do) what differences there might be between "ku-ca" and "ha-ku". Actually, I can't think of very many differences. Reasonably interchangable, I'd say.

The one small difference is that I would say: 1a. "ha-ku wa bo ha-mi suka khi khuan hi" (= "formerly, I didn't particularly like to go to the movies"), whereas I would never say: 1b. *"ku-ca wa bo ha-mi suka khi khuan hi". Conversely, I'd say: 2a. "ku-ca iang m-cai kong lang5 phua-pEN si in-ui u khun" (= "in the old days, they didn't know that people got sick because of germs", whereas I'd be less inclined to say: 2b *"ha-ku iang m-cai kong lang5 phua-pEN si in-ui u khun". However, in the case of 1a vs. 1b, 1a is very much more correct than 1b, whereas in the case of 2a vs. 2b, I think that 2a is just a more common way to say it than 2b.

All this is to say that I would *like* to say that "ha-ku" is for individual actions in the past (i.e. "formerly"), while "ku-ca" is for general situations in the past (i.e. "in former times"), but it's not as strong or as clear cut a distinction as that.

I would be interested to know how other readers perceive the differences between these two.
Mark Yong
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Re: Old-fashioned Vocabulary in Penang Hokkien

Post by Mark Yong »

While we are on the subject of the "past" words 舊早 kŭ-châ and 彼*久 hā-kû, I thought I'd go in the opposite direction and discuss the "future" terms...

The two terms I hear most often for "afterwards / later on / in a while" are 較等 kh’ā-téng / kh’ā-tân and 慢 ? 久 (măn-(iā)-kû. Again, putting my finger on the actual differences is difficult, but if I had to, I would say that 較等 kh’ā-téng / kh’ā-tân specifically means "afterwards" or "later on", while 慢 ? 久 (măn-(iā)-kû specifically means "in a (short) moment from now".

As to the relative usage of kh’ā-téng vs. kh’ā-tân for 較等, my experience in Penang is that more people use the former pronunciation.
xng
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Re: Old-fashioned Vocabulary in Penang Hokkien

Post by xng »

Mark Yong wrote:
If I am not mistaken, pai2 is written as - as in teng2-pai2 頂擺, cit8-pai2 一擺, nO7-pai2 兩擺, san1-pai2 三擺, etc. As for kui2-na5/7-pai2, I am venturing to guess that it is either 幾若擺 or 幾偌擺.
擺 has the wrong meaning and it's not the original character.
Ah-bin
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Re: Old-fashioned Vocabulary in Penang Hokkien

Post by Ah-bin »

擺 has the wrong meaning and it's not the original character.
U-iaN me? Unless you tell me the right meaning and the original character, I think I'll have to keep on using 擺 for now
xng
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Re: Old-fashioned Vocabulary in Penang Hokkien

Post by xng »

Ah-bin wrote:
擺 has the wrong meaning and it's not the original character.
U-iaN me? Unless you tell me the right meaning and the original character, I think I'll have to keep on using 擺 for now
I am still searching for the original character for a few words but here's a confirmed list...

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=5988
Ah-bin
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Re: Old-fashioned Vocabulary in Penang Hokkien

Post by Ah-bin »

Thanks for the list.

I'm feeling a bit 戇 myself for forgetting, but I've just remembered why you won't be able to find an original character for this morpheme - because it isn't Chinese to start with. It is an example of retention of the language spoken in what is now Fujian before the speakers of the language ancestral to today's Hokkien settled the area.

I believe I saw it in Anne Yue-Hashimoto's 1976 "Southern Chinese dialects--the Tai connection," Computational Analysis of Asian and African Languages, Tokyo, No. 6, pp. 1-9.

In "Zhuang" (a collective term for several Tai languages Spoken in Kng-sai 廣西(Guangxi), Kng-tang 廣東 (Guangdong), and Hun-lam 雲南 (Yunnan) it is pronounced "pai". The Chinese-based scripts these people used sometimes wrote it as (冫皮) there were about five or six different ways to write it, which I can try to input if you're interested.

擺 fits for sound so it is either that, or a empty square, or romanisation, or 次 which fits for meaning but not sound.
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