Dear friends
Apparently Hokkien Minnan architecture is considered unique among Chinese for usage of red bricks among commoners (red colour for building was reserved for imperial & religious buildings) which was an offence during Ming dynasty, according to Chinese National Geography (http://www.cngint.com/index.html). Its current issue has focus on Fujian (Hokkien) Province. Fujian: Spirit of the Sea (http://www.cngint.com/MagazionOne_mid_4.html). The magazine is easily found in Singapore and Malaysia. I strongly recommend this current issue. Among many others, all very interesting, it also has articles about Minnan architecture.
Here are youtube videos (authorized by the Kinmen Official Units) regarding Minnan architecture found in Kinmen (金門 Kim1-mng5):
金門匠師之01
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b6TS3yPi ... re=related
Conversation in Hokkien: 建築匠師 李清海 師傅 at 5:11 - 5:43, 6:25 - 7:30 (minute:second of the video).
金門匠師之2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xKjorYcOmcI&NR=1
Conversation in Hokkien: 木作匠師 胡青年 師傅 at 1:47 - 2:06, 2:51 - 3:13, 4:03 - 4:39.
木作匠師 許水益 師傅 5:03 - 5:21.
打石匠師 張再興 師傅 8:20 - 8:51.
金門匠之3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T2zl8uLieZQ&NR=1
Conversation in Hokkien: 前政務時期建設委員 顏西林 先生 3:24 - 3:53.
打石匠師 張再興 師傅 3:54 - 4:40, 5:17 - 5:40.
My paternal grandparents were from Kinmen 金門 (Kim1-mng5), yet in my hometown of Bagansiapiapi (Riau, Indonesia) our common language is 同安話 (Tang5-ua*1-ue7) since the majority are originated from Tong'an 同安 (Tang5-ua*1), including my maternal grandparents. I was told that Kim1-mng5-ue7 was slightly accented and had certain different phrases compared to Tang5-ua*1-ue7. However, the way Hokkien is spoken in those videos is very similar to Hokkien of Bagansiapiapi, particularly in the first video Mr Li (李清海 師傅) practically has identical Hokkien variant as mine. It is a pleasant finding.
May be you can watch the videos to see the beautiful Minnan architecture and also to compare their Hokkien with your respective variants. Enjoy!:-)
Hokkien Minnan Architecture (& language / culture etc)
Re: Hokkien Minnan Architecture (& language / culture etc)
Hi Niuc,
Thanks for posting those links.
Indeed, the speaker sounds quite similar to what I remember of how my granddad spoke too. But he was from Hui-uaN, and I have just learnt from Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hui%27an) that Hui-uaN is "a county in the municipal region of Quanzhou". Given that I learnt recently in the discussion about the ucla-site that Quanzhou dialect is so different from what I was used to (e.g. the lack of "b-"), I'm really surprised that Hui-uaN is in Quanzhou. I certainly don't remember my granddad not having "b-" in his Hokkien. Perhaps Hui-uaN is administratively part of Quanzhou, but not linguistically??? Tadpole, can you throw any light on this?
Anyway, I'm not sure under which thread to post the link below, and seeing as this is "Hokkien Minnan Architecture (& language / culture etc)", I thought I'd post it here.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KBSD-jsHARA
For the people who don't know it already, the guest star "Michael" is our Forum member "Ah-bin".
Enjoy!
SimL.
PS. Oh dear, the spammer is back, with a vengeance
Thanks for posting those links.
Indeed, the speaker sounds quite similar to what I remember of how my granddad spoke too. But he was from Hui-uaN, and I have just learnt from Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hui%27an) that Hui-uaN is "a county in the municipal region of Quanzhou". Given that I learnt recently in the discussion about the ucla-site that Quanzhou dialect is so different from what I was used to (e.g. the lack of "b-"), I'm really surprised that Hui-uaN is in Quanzhou. I certainly don't remember my granddad not having "b-" in his Hokkien. Perhaps Hui-uaN is administratively part of Quanzhou, but not linguistically??? Tadpole, can you throw any light on this?
Anyway, I'm not sure under which thread to post the link below, and seeing as this is "Hokkien Minnan Architecture (& language / culture etc)", I thought I'd post it here.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KBSD-jsHARA
For the people who don't know it already, the guest star "Michael" is our Forum member "Ah-bin".
Enjoy!
SimL.
PS. Oh dear, the spammer is back, with a vengeance
Re: Hokkien Minnan Architecture (& language / culture etc)
Hi Niuc,
In the second of your architecture videos (金門匠師之2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xKjorYcOmcI&NR=1), at about 04:31-04:33, he says "... toh si kong ai siN-kiaN - tua pO-tO e - bue sai ker" (= "pregnant women are not allowed to go"). Is the vowel sound in the "去" the one which people write as "ker" or "ky"? (Is there a difference between "ker" or "ky", or are they just alternative ways of spelling the same sound?).
In any case, however it's written, I believe this "去" at about 04:33 is the IPA "back high unrounded vowel" (the unrounded version of IPA ). The IPA symbol for it looks like an upside-down lowercase "m". I believe it's the same vowel as used when an Australian says (in a very heavy Australian accent) the first syllable of "Cooma" (the name of a small country town). I also believe it's the same vowel as the second syllable of "Baku", according to Wikipedia "(Azerbaijani: Bakı), sometimes known as Baqy, Baky, Baki or Bakü, is the capital, the largest city, and the largest port of Azerbaijan". I discovered this when I met a guy from Azerbaijan, and I asked him why the capital was sometimes spelled "Baku" and sometimes spelled "Baki" in English. He explained that the vowel in the second syllable was a sound which was not found in English, and he then pronounced it for me. What I heard was a vowel very similar to broad-Australian "Cooma" and my (Hui-uaN) grandfather's way of saying "去".
Hearing the guy on the youtube clip speak also reminded me of a conversation I heard between my grandparents when I was young. I must have been about 12, and my grandmother was "laughing" at my grandfather's pronunciation. She teased him that she (from Amoy) said "hi" (= "fish") and he (from Hui-uaN) said "her" (again, this back high unrounded vowel). That must be one of my earliest memories of differences in pronunciation of non-Penang Hokkien. Up to that point, I thought that there was Penang Hokkien (puiN/rice, huiN/far, etc, and siauN/think, kiauN/ginger, etc) vs non-Penang Hokken (png, hng, etc, and siuN, kiuN, etc). I was really surprised to discover that "non-Penang Hokkien" had variants also!
In the second of your architecture videos (金門匠師之2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xKjorYcOmcI&NR=1), at about 04:31-04:33, he says "... toh si kong ai siN-kiaN - tua pO-tO e - bue sai ker" (= "pregnant women are not allowed to go"). Is the vowel sound in the "去" the one which people write as "ker" or "ky"? (Is there a difference between "ker" or "ky", or are they just alternative ways of spelling the same sound?).
In any case, however it's written, I believe this "去" at about 04:33 is the IPA "back high unrounded vowel" (the unrounded version of IPA ). The IPA symbol for it looks like an upside-down lowercase "m". I believe it's the same vowel as used when an Australian says (in a very heavy Australian accent) the first syllable of "Cooma" (the name of a small country town). I also believe it's the same vowel as the second syllable of "Baku", according to Wikipedia "(Azerbaijani: Bakı), sometimes known as Baqy, Baky, Baki or Bakü, is the capital, the largest city, and the largest port of Azerbaijan". I discovered this when I met a guy from Azerbaijan, and I asked him why the capital was sometimes spelled "Baku" and sometimes spelled "Baki" in English. He explained that the vowel in the second syllable was a sound which was not found in English, and he then pronounced it for me. What I heard was a vowel very similar to broad-Australian "Cooma" and my (Hui-uaN) grandfather's way of saying "去".
Hearing the guy on the youtube clip speak also reminded me of a conversation I heard between my grandparents when I was young. I must have been about 12, and my grandmother was "laughing" at my grandfather's pronunciation. She teased him that she (from Amoy) said "hi" (= "fish") and he (from Hui-uaN) said "her" (again, this back high unrounded vowel). That must be one of my earliest memories of differences in pronunciation of non-Penang Hokkien. Up to that point, I thought that there was Penang Hokkien (puiN/rice, huiN/far, etc, and siauN/think, kiauN/ginger, etc) vs non-Penang Hokken (png, hng, etc, and siuN, kiuN, etc). I was really surprised to discover that "non-Penang Hokkien" had variants also!
Re: Hokkien Minnan Architecture (& language / culture etc)
Hi Sim
Thank you for the video. So, that's you & Ah-bin! Glad to see both of you conversing in Penang Hokkien!
As usual, Penang Hokkien strikes me as having averagely high pitched tones, while my variant having averagely lower pitch (like those in the videos I posted).
Yes, that vowel 'y' in 去 (khy3) is "ɯ" (upside-down lowercase "m") in IPA. Some write it as 'y', 'ir', 'er' etc... I prefer to use 'y' for this and 'er' for "ə" (schwa). These two vowels seem to be missing from Ciangciu & Penang variants. E-mng (Amoy) variant also doesn't have "y / ɯ", and now tends to use "er / ə" to replace "o". Nowadays E-mng pronunciation of "good" 好 'ho2' sounds similar to my pronunciation of "fire" 火 'her2'. That was not the case when Douglas wrote the Amoy Vernacular Dictionary.
Thank you for the video. So, that's you & Ah-bin! Glad to see both of you conversing in Penang Hokkien!
As usual, Penang Hokkien strikes me as having averagely high pitched tones, while my variant having averagely lower pitch (like those in the videos I posted). Yes, that vowel 'y' in 去 (khy3) is "ɯ" (upside-down lowercase "m") in IPA. Some write it as 'y', 'ir', 'er' etc... I prefer to use 'y' for this and 'er' for "ə" (schwa). These two vowels seem to be missing from Ciangciu & Penang variants. E-mng (Amoy) variant also doesn't have "y / ɯ", and now tends to use "er / ə" to replace "o". Nowadays E-mng pronunciation of "good" 好 'ho2' sounds similar to my pronunciation of "fire" 火 'her2'. That was not the case when Douglas wrote the Amoy Vernacular Dictionary.
Re: Hokkien Minnan Architecture (& language / culture etc)
Hi Niuc,
Thanks for the feedback. Yes, I thought Forum members might find it interesting to see what two other members look like. I hope to make and upload more Hokkien-related clips with Ah-bin during his stay here in the Netherlands. I was also pleased with the name I thought up for registering when first uploading on YouTube: "HokkienSim". It seemed like a nice reference to my full name: "Hock Sim", with a pun implying that I have a "Hokkien heart".
Indeed Penang Hokkien doesn't have "ɯ" and "ə".
I'm particularly happy to know the "ɯ"-sound because it's not that common in the world's languages (though not that uncommon, obviously, if broad Australian and Azeri have it). I believe it's quite difficult to learn to say, if one doesn't know it. (BTW, I've decided that broad Australian "Cooma" is not [kɯ:ma] but slightly diphthongized, perhaps [kɯuma].)
The place in Hokkien I come across "ə" most in other variants of Hokkien is in all the words where Penang Hokkien has "-eng", and they have "-iəng". For example "beng5" (= "clear"), "seng7" (= "to spoil/indulge a child"), "keng1" (= "classic", or measure word for rooms), etc are often "biəng5", "siəng7", "kiəng1", etc. Can you, Niuc (or anyone else) tell me which variants this "-iəng" is characteristic of? My grandparents died when I was about 18, and I hadn't seen them much from 14 to 18 because we were living in Australia, so I don't really remember clearly, but I thought both my Amoy grandmother and my Hui-uaN grandfather said "-iəng".
Thanks for the feedback. Yes, I thought Forum members might find it interesting to see what two other members look like. I hope to make and upload more Hokkien-related clips with Ah-bin during his stay here in the Netherlands. I was also pleased with the name I thought up for registering when first uploading on YouTube: "HokkienSim". It seemed like a nice reference to my full name: "Hock Sim", with a pun implying that I have a "Hokkien heart"
.Indeed Penang Hokkien doesn't have "ɯ" and "ə".
I'm particularly happy to know the "ɯ"-sound because it's not that common in the world's languages (though not that uncommon, obviously, if broad Australian and Azeri have it). I believe it's quite difficult to learn to say, if one doesn't know it. (BTW, I've decided that broad Australian "Cooma" is not [kɯ:ma] but slightly diphthongized, perhaps [kɯuma].)
The place in Hokkien I come across "ə" most in other variants of Hokkien is in all the words where Penang Hokkien has "-eng", and they have "-iəng". For example "beng5" (= "clear"), "seng7" (= "to spoil/indulge a child"), "keng1" (= "classic", or measure word for rooms), etc are often "biəng5", "siəng7", "kiəng1", etc. Can you, Niuc (or anyone else) tell me which variants this "-iəng" is characteristic of? My grandparents died when I was about 18, and I hadn't seen them much from 14 to 18 because we were living in Australia, so I don't really remember clearly, but I thought both my Amoy grandmother and my Hui-uaN grandfather said "-iəng".
Re: Hokkien Minnan Architecture (& language / culture etc)
Oh, I forgot to add that Ah-bin perceives the following three points about Penang Hokkien:
1. Tone-1, a highish level tone, is lower than Tone-1 in other variants of Hokkien, perhaps 44 or 33 instead of 55.
2. It has sometimes been noted that whereas other variants of Hokkien have the tone-sandhi rule Tone-3 => Tone-2 in non-final position, Penang Hokkien has the modified rule Tone-3 => Tone-1 in non-final position. Well, Ah-bin perceives that this (sandhied) Tone-1 is a high level tone, but is not quite the same as the citation Penang Hokkien Tone-1. Instead, he perceives it as being higher, perhaps 44 (if citation Tone-1 is considered 33) or 55 (if citation Tone-1 is considered 44).
3. Tone-2, a falling tone, doesn't fall as sharply as in other variants of Hokkien. Perhaps 53 instead of 51. In fact, Ah-bin perceives very little falling at all. Perhaps it really doesn't fall much, and it's distinguished from Tone-1 mainly by the fact that it starts higher than Tone-1 (and falls a little).
This last one I think I can perceive too. When I think of how "ho2" (= "good") is said in Amoy or Taiwanese vs. Penang Hokkien, I think indeed that it drops less sharply in Penang Hokkien.
Another friend who is very interested in Chinese has a way of measuring this on the PC, so I'll get him to measure me speaking and then we'll really know, based on objective, scientific measurements, rather than perception.
SimL
PS. I hope I have represented Ah-bin's perceptions accurately. If not, Ah-bin, please correct me here.
PPS. I apologise to tadpole for using the traditional terms "citation tone" and "sandhi tone". I think you have a valid point in your analysis of Hokkien, but on the other hand, I'm used to the old conceptual framework, and it works for me. I find it useful for thinking and talking about the things I wish to, and I think it enables me to communicate my thoughts to other forum members who are used to this framework as well.
1. Tone-1, a highish level tone, is lower than Tone-1 in other variants of Hokkien, perhaps 44 or 33 instead of 55.
2. It has sometimes been noted that whereas other variants of Hokkien have the tone-sandhi rule Tone-3 => Tone-2 in non-final position, Penang Hokkien has the modified rule Tone-3 => Tone-1 in non-final position. Well, Ah-bin perceives that this (sandhied) Tone-1 is a high level tone, but is not quite the same as the citation Penang Hokkien Tone-1. Instead, he perceives it as being higher, perhaps 44 (if citation Tone-1 is considered 33) or 55 (if citation Tone-1 is considered 44).
3. Tone-2, a falling tone, doesn't fall as sharply as in other variants of Hokkien. Perhaps 53 instead of 51. In fact, Ah-bin perceives very little falling at all. Perhaps it really doesn't fall much, and it's distinguished from Tone-1 mainly by the fact that it starts higher than Tone-1 (and falls a little).
This last one I think I can perceive too. When I think of how "ho2" (= "good") is said in Amoy or Taiwanese vs. Penang Hokkien, I think indeed that it drops less sharply in Penang Hokkien.
Another friend who is very interested in Chinese has a way of measuring this on the PC, so I'll get him to measure me speaking and then we'll really know, based on objective, scientific measurements, rather than perception.
SimL
PS. I hope I have represented Ah-bin's perceptions accurately. If not, Ah-bin, please correct me here.
PPS. I apologise to tadpole for using the traditional terms "citation tone" and "sandhi tone". I think you have a valid point in your analysis of Hokkien, but on the other hand, I'm used to the old conceptual framework, and it works for me. I find it useful for thinking and talking about the things I wish to, and I think it enables me to communicate my thoughts to other forum members who are used to this framework as well.
Re: Hokkien Minnan Architecture (& language / culture etc)
Hi Sim
If not mistaken, Hokkien variants within E-mng/Amoy and Cuanciu/Quanzhou groups all have "-iəng" instead of "eng". I would say that "ə" is more obvious in E-mng "-iəng", compared to Tang-ua*/Tong'an (more like "-ing"). Hmmm, actually I think "ə" there is due to "ng", rather than meant as real vowel.
If your friend can do it, I wish he can help to measure my variant's tones too
If not mistaken, Hokkien variants within E-mng/Amoy and Cuanciu/Quanzhou groups all have "-iəng" instead of "eng". I would say that "ə" is more obvious in E-mng "-iəng", compared to Tang-ua*/Tong'an (more like "-ing"). Hmmm, actually I think "ə" there is due to "ng", rather than meant as real vowel.
If your friend can do it, I wish he can help to measure my variant's tones too
-
Andrew
Re: Hokkien Minnan Architecture (& language / culture etc)
If you say the phrase chhau3-chho1 or si3-khO1, I don't know whether you agree that the 3-tone does actually have a dip, maybe 54-44 rather than 55-44?SimL wrote:Oh, I forgot to add that Ah-bin perceives the following three points about Penang Hokkien:
1. Tone-1, a highish level tone, is lower than Tone-1 in other variants of Hokkien, perhaps 44 or 33 instead of 55.
2. It has sometimes been noted that whereas other variants of Hokkien have the tone-sandhi rule Tone-3 => Tone-2 in non-final position, Penang Hokkien has the modified rule Tone-3 => Tone-1 in non-final position. Well, Ah-bin perceives that this (sandhied) Tone-1 is a high level tone, but is not quite the same as the citation Penang Hokkien Tone-1. Instead, he perceives it as being higher, perhaps 44 (if citation Tone-1 is considered 33) or 55 (if citation Tone-1 is considered 44).
I suppose there is no reason why the a sandhi/running tone must correspond to another citation/standing tone, other than it is more neat.
-
Andrew
Re: Hokkien Minnan Architecture (& language / culture etc)
I've noticed that in Taiwan they use the Mandarin hs- / x- sound where we in Penang use a s-. I wonder if that is to do with Mandarin v English influence. Yet the -ieng is used in Beijing Mandarin but not (afaiaa) in Taiwanese Mandarin, but is used in Amoy/Taiwan Hokkien.niuc wrote:Hi Sim
If not mistaken, Hokkien variants within E-mng/Amoy and Cuanciu/Quanzhou groups all have "-iəng" instead of "eng". I would say that "ə" is more obvious in E-mng "-iəng", compared to Tang-ua*/Tong'an (more like "-ing"). Hmmm, actually I think "ə" there is due to "ng", rather than meant as real vowel.
Re: Hokkien Minnan Architecture (& language / culture etc)
This is very standard in Teochew dialect, where Tone-1's running and standing tones coincide, and both of them are 33.Andrew wrote:SimL wrote:Oh, I forgot to add that Ah-bin perceives the following three points about Penang Hokkien:
1. Tone-1, a highish level tone, is lower than Tone-1 in other variants of Hokkien, perhaps 44 or 33 instead of 55.
I was looking at some Japanese song lyrics yesterday. As you may know, Japanese uses quite a few suffixes (-wa, -ni, -mo, -ga, -no, etc, for adjectives -i, etc.) I never had a good solution for marking these suffixes in the romanized writing. Sometimes I use hyphen, sometimes I don't. Yesterday it occured to me that I could use the phrase break mark (a period dot . as in Tadpolenese) instead. And actually it worked out pretty well. But then all of a sudden it also hit me big time: Hokkien's stereotony may ultimately come from original Japanese-like suffixes. This is not as crazy as it may sound. Because in Hokkien we DO find contractions.I suppose there is no reason why the a sandhi/running tone must correspond to another citation/standing tone, other than it is more neat.
For instance:
gar i --> ga (給伊)
hour i --> hou (互伊)
loq kyc --> loeq (落去)
sniah laang --> sniaang / snialng (啥儂)
From the grammatical role of many YangShang-tone words, I am developing a sense that the original Old Hokkien (older than Middle Hokkien which stabilized in Southern Song dynasty) was a tone-less language. Now it seems highly likely that this language also used suffix particles just like Japanese. Stereotony happened because: (1) on one hand, Old Hokkien imported too many terms from Old/Middle Chinese, which was a tonal language, yet (2) at the same time, Old Hokkien retained toneless suffix particles, which, because it was a tone-less language, tended to have a contrastive tonal value with the last syllable in the Chinese expressions. At a later stage, the final syllable in the Chinese expressions coalesced (merged) with the suffix particle, much like in the case of "gar i --> ga (給伊)". So, the standing tones tended to be contrastive with running tones.
Since the suffix particles were originally from a toneless language, the coalescence by no means followed a uniform tonal development across Old-Hokkien dialects. That is, different Hokkien subdialects developed their standing tones differently. This helps to explain why the running tones are much more uniform in their pitch values across subdialects than their standing-tone counterparts.
I think this conjecture actually opens a new gate of possibilities, particularly also for Min-Dong (閩東 e.g. Foochow/Fuzhou) language group. MinDong not not undergoes tonal pitch changes, but also open/close vowel change (緊鬆韻). It may be worthwhile to explore this direction for MinDong and Wu dialects, too.