Hokkien words without written (Mandarin) characters?

[tadpole]

I don't really agree that it's a fact about She. You've given one example of vocabulary as opposed to the ten or so given by Yue-Hashimoto. Added to that, you have assumed that She referred to the same group eight hundred years ago as it does now in the PRC.

She is a big group, mind you. The fact that many dialects in Fujian have sha/sia/sa as human/people should tell you something.

"She" might just have meant "people who speak another language and practice swidden agriculture" rather than "she" for the language and "minzu" group the communists recognise today.

Today you call Chinese to 1.3 billion people. So what's your point?

It's not that She is a single word, it's used in many dialects in Fujian, including Min and Hakka and native She dialects. 羅美珍 has spent time finding them, you might as well respect a bit more her findings. Pu ngiong sa, Tiong pu sa, etc. can be found in Hakka dialects. I've posted about this in many forums by now (including 閩語論壇 http://www.gophor.com/hokkien/index.php), and I am getting a bit too tired of lecturing everyone in this world on an individual basis. It's not my job. It's something that should be taught in elementary schools and high schools. I am not willing to spend more time lecturing each person on an individual basis.

http://www.gophor.com/hokkien/viewthrea ... 3D1&page=5
书名：客家方言
作者：罗美珍，邓晓华
福建教育出版社
1995年12月第一版
ISBN7-5334-1940-5/K.52

第73页：
「东汉袁康《越绝书》卷三《越绝吴内传第四》：“越人谓人‘铩’也。”闻宥认为古越语中这个“铩”可以比证现代台语称“男人”的一个词，如傣语tsa:i，侬语tsa:i，壮语sa:i，布侬语sa:i。张永言发现壮侗语壮傣语支的这个词除见于汉代文献外，还见于唐代作品。李贺《黄家洞》诗：“官军自杀容州槎。”张认为李诗中这个作动词“杀”的宾语“槎”在汉语内无合适义训，应是当地民族语上述称男人那个词的记音字。古越语的这个词在闽、客方言中仍有保留，如称“男人”：永安方言称“丈夫畲”tiam pu sa，沙县称tiŋ pu ʃia：连城四堡话称“男子畲”naŋ tsɨ ʃau。称“女人”，永安称“阿娘畲”o~ ŋiam sa，沙县a iŋ ʃia，连城称“妇娘畲”pu ɲioŋ ʃau。称“小孩”，永安“囝仔畲”kyiŋ tsa sa，尤溪ky~e tsai ʃia，连城称“嫩嫩仔畲”nai nai tsɨ ʃau。这种词尾用法在这几个方言中很普遍，“槎”与“畲”中古音近，正好与壮侗语对应。壮侗语“男人”称sai，“女人”称sau，实际上“槎”并非单指男人，应是对“人”的泛称。上述几个汉语方言可为证据。这也是对闻、张说的一点方言补证。」

More reference given by other people in there.

I always say the ethnic history in Fujian is very complicated. Spend sometime tracking all my posting ins Peking University forum and you will find out I NEVER have a naive view of the situation. In fact, I called Fujian the Balkans of China many times. However, I've been long enough tracking what's known in this field (over 15 years by now) that I really don't think you have anything new that I don't already know. Sorry to say that, but it's true. So don't come to tell me anything, because I do believe I have covered much more territory in this field than you. I don't have time to give lectures to each and every single individuals in this world. I am not paid for that. If you lack knowledge as a taxpayer, you know who to complain to: you complain to people that you pay money to. You don't pay me.

[Ah-bin]

I don't really agree that it's a fact about She. You've given one example of vocabulary as opposed to the ten or so given by Yue-Hashimoto. Added to that, you have assumed that She referred to the same group eight hundred years ago as it does now in the PRC.

My mistake, should have read: "the ten or so Tai lexical items given by Yue-Hashimoto" and been qualified with "for Southern MIn". So it would suggest that there is more Tai-Kadai in Southern Min than She.

Hey! reading your piece from Luo Meizhen and Deng Xiaohua it says that She is a Tai-Kadai word too! That would mean that the She people have a Tai name, which is odd for a group of people (if they were a group at all, and not just a Chinese term for "barbarian") who don't speak a Tai-Kadai language.

[Andrew]

I always say the ethnic history in Fujian is very complicated. Spend sometime tracking all my posting ins Peking University forum and you will find out I NEVER have a naive view of the situation. In fact, I called Fujian the Balkans of China many times. However, I've been long enough tracking what's known in this field (over 15 years by now) that I really don't think you have anything new that I don't already know. Sorry to say that, but it's true. So don't come to tell me anything, because I do believe I have covered much more territory in this field than you. I don't have time to give lectures to each and every single individuals in this world. I am not paid for that. If you lack knowledge as a taxpayer, you know who to complain to: you complain to people that you pay money to. You don't pay me.

A quite unnecessary post, if I may say so, and one I think that goes beyond the limits of reasonable discourse.

[xng]

Thanks for pointing out that there isn't necessarily an equivalent Mandarin word/ideogram or the mistake of equating mei with sui rather than bi. I thought bi was perhaps the literary as opposed to colloquial word. It isn't even a matter of reminding because I am starting from ignorance not forgetfulness.

Was Hokkien a medium of instruction in the schools of Hokkien speaking districts of southern Fujian province the way Cantonese was (is?) the medium of instruction in Hong Kong?

Hokkien and cantonese being older languages used certain characters that was used in older dynasties that mandarin being a young language don't commonly use eg.毋

Since hokkien is even older than cantonese, it uses 許 (That) and 伊 (He/she) that even cantonese don't use.

Colloquail sound and literary sound can be deduced from each other. But 'Bi' and 'Sui' are too different from each other to be related.

When I was in Fujian province, I heard that the older generation do have their lessons in Hokkien. That's why they cannot speak mandarin.

[xng]

I don't really agree that it's a fact about She. You've given one example of vocabulary as opposed to the ten or so given by Yue-Hashimoto. Added to that, you have assumed that She referred to the same group eight hundred years ago as it does now in the PRC.

My mistake, should have read: "the ten or so Tai lexical items given by Yue-Hashimoto" and been qualified with "for Southern MIn". So it would suggest that there is more Tai-Kadai in Southern Min than She.

Both miao-yau (she) and tai-kadai people (but not austronesian/malay) populated most of south china as can be seen in modern china. So it is not illogical to say that those terms can be from either group. But I thought that man is pronounced as 'Ta Po' and not 'Ca Po' ?

But since there are She people living in Fujian province today, it is more likely that the natives were miao-yao instead of tai-kadai, read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fujian for composition of ethnic groups.

Even cantonese seems to have some Zhuang words.

Fujian province is about the size of west malaysia. 2000 years ago, there were hardly any people there to warrant any cities other than one or two. The only ancient city I know there is Fuzhou which was the capital of Minyue so most native people lived there before the migration of the Han chinese from the north.

Quanzhou had the first migration from the north around the 3 kingdoms while Zhangzhou had their migration around the Tang dynasty.

Amoy was formed much later during the Qing dynasty.

So if you want to confirm any non sinitic words, one should research on MinDong area (eg. HokCiu, HokCia) as that was the earliest settlement in Fujien province.

Correct me if I am wrong.

[SimL]

I removed this reply because I re-read and understood what xng was trying to say.

Sorry!

[Ah-bin]

So if you want to confirm any non sinitic words, one should research on MinDong area (eg. HokCiu, HokCia) as that was the earliest settlement in Fujien province.

Yes, I had trouble understanding what you meant at first too, but I see what you mean Xng (how do you pronounce that by the way, I thought "crossing" or "xing" without an "i"). It is important to look at the non-Sinitic words that exist in MIn as a whole by looking at the speech of these northern and eastern areas where the words were first borrowed in.

But then there are some non-Sinitic words peculiar to Southern Min, such as "bah" for "meat" (I can't think of any more at the moment) - that aren't even used much to the north of Chuan-chiu. I asked quite a few people from there how to say meat and they came out with "hek". I think bah is the greatest riddle of all in Hokkien.

Also the She/Miao/Yao speaking peoples tended to move around a lot because they practiced swidden agriculture, and I remember reading that She people also had legends about having migrated into their present areas in Fujian from somewhere else. There was a whole series of books about She that came out about five years ago, but I forget which one talked about this.

[xng]

Yes, I had trouble understanding what you meant at first too, but I see what you mean Xng (how do you pronounce that by the way, I thought "crossing" or "xing" without an "i"). It is important to look at the non-Sinitic words that exist in MIn as a whole by looking at the speech of these northern and eastern areas where the words were first borrowed in.

But then there are some non-Sinitic words peculiar to Southern Min, such as "bah" for "meat" (I can't think of any more at the moment) - that aren't even used much to the north of Chuan-chiu. I asked quite a few people from there how to say meat and they came out with "hek". I think bah is the greatest riddle of all in Hokkien.

Xng is pronounced as two sounds X - Ng.

The earliest settlements in Fujian judging from history books are in the North (wuyi mountain area) and East Fujian (Fuzhou area) during the MinYue kingdom.

There is an area north of Chuan-chiu ie. Putian/Hing Hua that uses 'Mah' for "meat" also (Bah->Mah initial in Hing Hua) but that can be explained because Putian was part of Quanzhou before the Song dynasty.

The sound of a character can be guessed from cantonese which is 'Yuk' so min is pronounced closely as "Hiek/Hek" since Min languages don't have Y initial.

I am not saying that there are no non-sinitic words in Minnan but it is far less compared with MinDong as the Minnan region was populated mainly by Han chinese.

Eg. "Sabun" which is portugese/dutch ? in origin was probably borrowed when the Europeans went to trade in quanzhou port.

Taiwan hokkien is influenced by japanese because it has contact with them whereas Penang Hokkien is influenced by Malay.

So I would say that MinDong has more 'native' ie. MinYue (non sinitic) words

[xng]

Here's the source that MinDong (and possibly MinBei) contains non sinitic words

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuzhou_dialect

"The Ancient Wu and Ancient Chu language brought by the mass influx of Han immigrants from Northern area gradually mixed with the local Minyue language and finally developed into the Ancient Min language, from which Fuzhou dialect evolved.[2]

Fuzhou dialect came into being during the period somewhere between late Tang Dynasty and "Five Dynasties and Ten Kingdoms"[3], and has been considered by most as a Chinese dialect ever since. However, it is also worth noting that its substratum is constituted by large quantities of well-preserved Minyue vocabulary. In this sense, Fuzhou dialect is a de facto mixed language of Ancient Chinese and Minyue language"

Minnan and HingHua (which was derived from Minnan) is a purer Han language than MinDong.