Running/standing tones

[Andrew]

I've noticed that in Amoy Hokkien, verbs followed by a direct or indirect noun in a sentence will usually be in the running/sandhi tone, whereas in Penang they will usually be in the standing/citation tone. Are there rules that explain when it should be the one or the other?

[niuc]

Hi Andrew

Mine is like E-mng/Amoy Hokkien in this case. So, does 穿衫 (to wear shirt) sound the same as 千三 (one thousand three hundred) in Penang Hokkien?

[SimL]

I've noticed that in Amoy Hokkien, verbs followed by a direct or indirect noun in a sentence will usually be in the running/sandhi tone, whereas in Penang they will usually be in the standing/citation tone. Are there rules that explain when it should be the one or the other?

Hi Andrew,

Are you sure of this?

I picked 3 common verbs "ciah8" (= "to eat"), "lim1" (= "to drink"), and "khuaN3" (= "to look at"), and with arbitrary nouns after them [e.g. "ciah chai3, ke1, sng1-uan5" (= "to eat vegetables, chicken, ice-balls"); "lim cui2, tE5, ko1-pi1" (= "to drink water, tea, coffee"); "khuaN hi3, lang5, tian7-si7" (= "to watch plays/films, people, tv"). In all these cases, the verb has a sandhi-tone.

So, does 穿衫 (to wear shirt) sound the same as 千三 (one thousand three hundred) in Penang Hokkien?

I don't get any change in tone between plain 穿 and 穿衫, but I believe that is because 穿 is cheng7 (according to http://www.internationalscientific.org). And for me, tone-7 => tone-3 (sandhied) and they sound identical in my variant.

To sum up: In my experience verbs in Penang Hokkien do have sandhi-tone. Perhaps my Hokkien is Amoy influenced, but I don't think it is in this particular aspect.

[niuc]

Hi Sim

So, does 穿衫 (to wear shirt) sound the same as 千三 (one thousand three hundred) in Penang Hokkien?

I don't get any change in tone between plain 穿 and 穿衫, but I believe that is because 穿 is cheng7 (according to http://www.internationalscientific.org). And for me, tone-7 => tone-3 (sandhied) and they sound identical in my variant.

Yeah, I kind of remember you mentioned this (tone 7 sounds identical tone 3 in your variant) before. So 穿衫 and 千三 sound the same in your variant, not because the verb (穿) not in running/sandhi-tone but because its sandhi sounds the same as its standing/citation tone, right? Or 穿衫 and 千三 sound differently in your variant?

[SimL]

Yeah, I kind of remember you mentioned this (tone 7 sounds identical tone 3 in your variant) before. So 穿衫 and 千三 sound the same in your variant, not because the verb (穿) not in running/sandhi-tone but because its sandhi sounds the same as its standing/citation tone, right? Or 穿衫 and 千三 sound differently in your variant?

Hi Niuc,

Yes, indeed. 穿衫 and 千三 sound completely identical.

So the answers to the following two conversations sound identical.

Conversation-1
A: How many stamps does he have?
B: 1003 (or is it 1300?).

Conversation-2
A: What has he gone to do?
B: Put on a shirt/clothes.

Perhaps it seems as strange to you that they sound identical in my variant as it seems strange to me that they don't in yours...

[SimL]

To sum up: In my experience verbs in Penang Hokkien do have sandhi-tone

Hmmm... Last night I discovered something about (at least Penang) Hokkien, which I hadn't realised before. Namely, that even though the above statement is true, the verb does not take a sandhi-tone when the object which follows is a noun with something preceding it - either a pronoun with a possessive (wa e, lu e, i e, etc) preceding the actual noun, or any other noun with a possessive (he-le sin-sEN e, lu e peng-iu e, etc) preceding the actual noun, or many other qualifiers preceding the actual noun.

For example:
"ciah lu e chai3, ke1, sng1-uan5" (= "to eat your vegetables, chicken, ice-balls")
"lim (he-le) thau-kE e cui2, tE5, ko1-pi1" (= "to drink (that) boss's water, tea, coffee")
"khuaN ci(t)-khuan e hi3, lang5, tian7-si7" (= "to watch this type of play/film, people, tv")
"khuaN cin-nia ce hi3, lang5" (= "to watch many plays/films, people")

In all these cases (in contrast to the earlier examples of a 'plain' noun), the verb has a citation tone.

Never noticed this before, and I find this slightly odd, because the "traditional" definition is that "standing/citation tones are for 'compoundterm-final'/'phrase-final' syllables, and running/sandhi tones are for non-'compoundterm-final'/non-'phrase-final' syllables". In no way could the verbs in the 3 examples above be considered to be 'compoundterm-final'/'phrase-final' syllables, and yet they have standing/citation tones!

[niuc]

Hi Sim

Conversation-1
A: How many stamps does he have?
B: 1003 (or is it 1300?).

千三 is 1300, not 1003. I think this is the case for Chinese languages, at least Hokkien and Mandarin. 1003 is 一千空三 'cit8-ching1-khong3-sa*1'.

Perhaps it seems as strange to you that they sound identical in my variant as it seems strange to me that they don't in yours...

Yes, because we are not used to the other variant... indeed 習慣成自然 'sip8-kuan3 sing5-cy7-jian5', 無習慣就無自然 'bo5-sip8-kuan5 tio8(ciu7)-bo5-cy7-jian5'.

For example:
"ciah lu e chai3, ke1, sng1-uan5" (= "to eat your vegetables, chicken, ice-balls")
"lim (he-le) tau-kE e cui2, tE5, ko1-pi1" (= "to drink (that) boss's water, tea, coffee")
"khuaN ci(t)-khuan e hi3, lang5, tian7-si7" (= "to watch this type of play/film, people, tv")
"khuaN cin-nia ce hi3, lang5" (= "to watch many plays/films, people")

In all these cases (in contrast to the earlier examples of a 'plain' noun), the verb has a citation tone.

In my variant, all verbs above are in running/sandhi tone.

[Andrew]

Hmm - I guess you are right and Penang Hokkien has the running tones in some places and standing tones in others - my initial post came from hearing something in Taiwanese Hokkien from the online lessons that Niuc posted that I knew sounded strange and would have been pronounced in a standing tone in Penang, but I can't remember what it was.

[SimL]

Hi Andrew,

Thanks for confirming this! Quite a discovery, about this unusual aspect of Penang Hokkien, especially as niuc confirms that his variant does have running-tones.

[SimL]

千三 is 1300, not 1003. I think this is the case for Chinese languages, at least Hokkien and Mandarin. 1003 is 一千空三 'cit8-ching1-khong3-sa*1'.

Hi Niuc,

Thanks. That I was unsure of this shows just how limited my Hokkien is!